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forumbro

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Reply with quote  #1 

Hello there,

I'm a newbie!

I'm so glad I'm out of a MacArthur church.

I don't want to say my name or even my location because I know how these people operate.

In time I'd like to tell my story, perhaps if it seems right and proper, but I'm even wary of doing so, as I have no way of knowing if their people actually monitor forums such as these, or not.

I have a question.

Is there evidence of TMS graduates taking over buildings, doing restoration work on them, selling them off, and profiting from it? My gut feeling is that's what may be happening at the church I left.

I don't want to make any false accusations, but something seems wrong, and I'm wondering whether others have seen this tactic in action.

Blessings,

Forumbro

watchmanwakes

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Reply with quote  #2 
Hi Forumbro,

I do believe that the TMS grads have taken over many churches and changed the doctrine to Lordship Salvation, but I'm not sure of the financial angle.  

bjw

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Reply with quote  #3 
Forumbro,
Glad to hear you are out and welcome to the forum.

To answer some of your questions:
Yes, they do monitor forums such as this one, TWW, and Cult Ed, and they have had shill posters stir up arguments among those that are posting.  When I was still there they would have seminary students or members trying to get out of the restoration process write letters to ministries that are critical of the church to attack them.  So, you are smart to remain anonymous until you know for sure you can trust someone. 

One way you can spot their shills is they will gradually try to get you to tell your personal beliefs and doctrinal views.  They do this because they are taught that the only reason you reject lordship salvation is you are hiding unconfessed sin in your life and that is the only reason you are attacking them, and that one of your beliefs is justifying the sin.  They think that if they can trick you into telling your beliefs and then find the one that is allowing you to hide these sins, they can then show how you are unsaved and need to surrender to the lordship of Christ.  They will make you tell your doctrinal position like this over and over until you say the same thing a different way, and then use that to try to show you have lied, and thus are not a true Christian.  Therefore, it is best to never engage them in a debate on the internet or in person, just stick with your personal convictions and not answer any of their questions.  It also helps them because when they see these tricks don't work on people outside of their bubble it may plant some seeds of doubt.

To answer your second question, watchmanwakes was correct, and to me that means they will be in a position where they can benefit financially from the operation of these churches.  The way the TMAI/Grace Advance scam works is they have their grads join the church and work their way up to elder status.  Once they are on the majority of the church's board of elders, they get rid of anyone that doesn't go along with MacArthur's lordship views.  From there they can put up a TMS grad pastor, use GCC's system and curriculum, and run a satellite campus of TMS out of the church to give people degrees in both the theology and counseling.  If you look at brokenbutstanding's posts elsewhere on this forum, her family lost everything they had because her father was a pastor and was thrown out of his position he had for years.  So, it is bound to happen where these TMS grads get into positions where property deals benefit them financially just as MacArthur is benefiting financially making 1.1 million per year off of being a "minister."  I would advise that you read the other threads in this forum relative to this and trust the gut feeling you have.
bjw

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Reply with quote  #4 
Forumbro,
One more thing, I highly recommend you scroll down to a thread on this forum from 3 years ago from "brokenbutstanding" called "takeover of a church in Italy, the first of many?"  I think it will show how this process works and may be similar to what happened to your church.
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The Watchman Wakes In Vain
    Except the Lord build the house, they labour in vain that build it: except the                 Lord keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain.  Psalm 127:1
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