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thefarrside

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Brannon Howse who leads Worldview Weekend did a show about one year ago with Jimmy DeYoung, who was his guest and is also one of his contributors.  I was shocked at the program.  I had not been previously aware of John MacArthur's comment regarding the mark of the beast so this short five minute program slapped me right in the face.  It began with the two of them sitting at a table.  I could paraphrase, but why do that when I transcribed the entire conversation which was a five minute program, including everything said at John MacArthur's Q&A.  I'm putting this on here because these men, Brannon Howse with Worldview Weekend and Jimmy DeYoung need to be exposed, just as MacArthur has been exposed, for being fraud's.  I did write Brannon Howse a 7 page letter giving him every scripture refuting his lie.  He did not answer me.  We severed all connections with him and his ministry.  I would also like to warn people that Brannon Howse and most of his contributors are Calvinists.  He still refuses to acknowledge that and I believe he must do this for fear of losing serious contribution money.  Irregardless of what he claims, they are Calvinists.  If you walk like a duck and talk like a duck, then you are a duck.  You know what's sad about all these frauds is that a part of their ministry is exposing frauds!  Unbelievable!  I will just go ahead and give you the conversation that anyone can hear on You Tube, address provided at the end.  Please note their interpretation of how and when things take place during the 7 year tribulation.  It is quite dizzying.  These guys have taken the Revelation of Jesus Christ and twisted it into a lying end times scenario to fit their Masonic agenda.

Brannon:  I've got a surprise for you today.

DeYoung:  Okay

Brannon:  Do you remember when someone asked about the mark of the beast and whether or not someone could receive the mark of the beast and then become a believer?  Do you remember that?

DeYoung: Unhuh

Howse:  Do you remember the controversy that stirred up?

DeYoung:  Yes

Howse:  It was quite a bit, wasn't it?

DeYoung:  It was.

Howse:  I got a lot of emails saying, "I can't believe he (MacArthur) would say such a thing!  Remember all that?

DeYoung:  Yes, sir, I do.

Howse:  Alright.  Well, I was walking April (his dog) the other night listening to a Q&A from a few years ago how John MacArthur on a Wednesday night would let folks in his congregation stand up and go to the microphone and shoot questions at him.  Would you like to hear the question that was asked and his answer?

DeYoung: (laughs) Yeah!

Howse: (laughs) Okay, here we go.

 

Person in John MacArthur's church congregation:  This is in regard to about half way into the tribulation when men will be required to have the mark of the beast in order to buy or sell.  My question is, once a person takes the mark is there any possibility of him coming to Christ?

MacArthur:  Yes, I think in the seven year tribulation coming in the future, we're going to get into this probably this next Sunday night, but the tribulation is a seven year period, right?  The rapture happens, 7 year tribulation, then Christ returns and sets up his Kingdom.  Now in that 7 year period really two things begins to happen.  God begins to judge the world with a series of holocausts, at the same time he begins to redeem his people Israel.  In the process of this the anti-Christ establishes his rule and in order to function in the economy you have to take the mark of the beast.  The mark being the number of a man, Revelation 13, number 666.  Six (6) is the number of man, right?  Seven (7) is the number of perfection and man always falls short of perfection.   666, always 6's, never 7's.  So apparently what's going to happen, you take the mark on your hand or on your forehead and we've talked a lot about that, that's kind of a computer situation.  We are now moving fast toward the time when we are going to have to do everything we do by cards and by numbers and all of that, and those numbers....the thing about a card is that you lose it. and so they have already devised systems where they can put the number on your hand and on your forehead and you can go through a scanner and that's how you can buy and sell and it's automatically deducted from your bank account.

Now, the question is:  IF you are living in the tribulation period and you take this mark, in other words you identify with the beasts empire (emphasis mine), will you still be able to be redeemed?  And I think the answer to that is YES!  Yes!  Otherwise there would be no salvation of anybody in the end of the tribulation and you've got to have salvation of folks at the end of the tribulation.  You're going to have the Jews redeemed.  You're going to have according to Revelation 7 an innumerable number of Gentiles redeemed so many that can't even be counted from across the face of the earth.  So I don't think the fact that someone takes that is a sentence to permanency anymore than you being a part of this world's system once in your life means you have to be a part of the system all of your life.  Especially when the 144,000 don't start their ministry until  the second half.  That would make it a little tough!"  End

Howse :  Well, there you go Dr. DeYoung.

DeYoung:  (laughing)  Well, we're looking at the same book.  You know, that's what's so interesting and that's what we were saying.  That's not the unpardonable sin.  You've got to be.....the thought, the thought there that he said was very interesting.  The fact is, if nobody gets saved during the last 3-1/2 years, because they have received that mark, there's that unbelievable number of Jews that come to Christ that are living and actually go into the millennial kingdom in their natural bodies.  It's good that Brother John is looking at the same book that I am and came up with the same answer.

Howse:  Well, it is!  And that was very interesting because you remember that was really, really controversial.  I don't.... I'm not so sure you've ever made a statement on our program before that was as controversial as that one and I got so many emails on it.  And then I was walking the dog the other night listening to this Q&A and I thought, "Oh, I've got to play this on the air.  This will be a great surprise for Dr. DeYoung.

DeYoung:  Well, it is a pleasant surprise.  The dear brothers and sisters who disagreed, you know, I don't quite know where they were coming from, I don't need to know that, but just now with that confirmation from another bible teacher and he's a great bible teacher, I'm just a beginner.  But, ah,

(both laughing)

Howse:  No, I wouldn't say that.  Come on.

DeYoung:  It's great to see that and the great confirmation of both of us believing that same thing, I wonder how many more emails you're gonna get now!

Howse:  Oh, well!  Oh, well!

DeYoung:  You've got two guys on your side that are pretty good, right?

Howse:  I think so, too.  I think so, too.

DeYoung:  Well, we both love you and love what you're doing and I have the opportunity to interact on your program.

Howse:  Well, the feeling is mutual, thank you.

 

You can hear this for yourself on You Tube @



Well, Jimmy DeYoung says so condescendingly, "The dear brothers and sisters who disagreed, you know, I don't quite know where they were coming from."  Well, Jimmy, let me tell you where we are coming from.  Revelation 14:9-12 (9)And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, (10) The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: (11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. (12) here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. AND, Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

That angel is speaking in a VERY loud voice.  No one is going to have a problem hearing it.  If you take this mark, later on when you stand before God at the Great White Throne Judgment no one will be able to say, "But God.... the TV was on too loud and I didn't hear it."  Nope!  Won't work.  Everyone heard the same warning. 

I'm sure you noticed that none of these guys referenced a bible scripture for their position.  Not one!  In fact, John MacArthur at the end has the audacity to say this: "IF you are living in the tribulation period and you take this mark, in other words you identify with the beasts empire (emphasis mine because let's face it - it's totally a Luciferian initiation), will you still be able to be redeemed?  And, I think the answer to that is YES!  Yes!

"And, I think" Mr. MacArthur?  Is that all you've got??  Really?  You think?? 

Let me end this by commending the work Bob Johnson has done in exposing John MacArthur, and of Barbara Aho who took his work, expanded on it, and then made it available to all of her readers on Watch Unto Prayer.  To both of you, "Good Job!"

Now, these other two guys, Brannon Howse with Worldview Weekend and Jimmy DeYoung need to be exposed because they have big ministries and are spreading this lie to countless thousands of people all around the world.  They need to be exposed for also being just two more heads of the dragon in this age of apostasy.

People need to know that if you take the mark that is a defining mark, indeed!  There is no redemption after that. 

 

   

 

watchmanwakes

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Reply with quote  #2 
Thefarrside,

Thank you very much for that post.  I had forgotten that Brannon House and Jimmy DeYoung agreed with Macarthur that one could still be redeemed after taking the mark of the Beast.  And I didn't know Brannon House was a Calvinist.  Did you see that John Macarthur's propaganda minister, Phil Johnson, has written officially from Grace To You in agreement with Macarthur that taking the mark of the Beast is NOT unpardonable?  

This is how Phil Johnson's "Unforgivable?" begins:

"Several years ago in a live Q&A session, someone asked John MacArthur if taking the mark of the Beast during the Great Tribulation would be an unpardonable sin. His answer, in short, was no. Though there is a stern warning against taking the mark of the Beast in Revelation 14, the sin is not categorically said to be unpardonable. (That would contradict Matthew 12:31.)" 
thefarrside

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I hadn't heard what Phil Johnson said regarding this topic, but I am certainly not surprised by it, as I am sure you were not either.  Phil Johnson is only doing what the boss man says.  Matthew 12:31 does not refute the two Revelation scriptures.  And, since the bible cannot contradict itself that verse in Matthew cannot change the meaning of the Revelation verses to suit Mr. MacArthur's interpretation. 
IDChristian

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This is the hubris of these people. Phil Johnson quoting the scripture and then following it up with a direct contradiction. What a diabolical confidence! It truly is astounding that people cannot see it for what it is. You almost have to wonder if it isn't some kind of matrix where as long as you are in the matrix of MacArthurism, you have no choice. You live by the illusion and all truth is his truth. Could be said of any cult or ism.

When you come out of the matrix and you meet Jesus Christ and you take his word at face value, you find that you do have a choice. There is reality apart from the matrix. Now you are able to see that the denials of MacArthur and associates are subtle but definite. Not having the support of the Matrix might be a little fearful and destabilizing for the first bit, but if truth becomes important to you, the loss of support will become minor.

Believing it's not of works that we come to know Christ but it is a gift of his righteousness that is given as we believe the truths of his Word is true freedom. No matrix needed. We have been born again, we are given Light of Christ and the gift of the Holy Spirit to guide us. He is our reality.
watchmanwakes

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Coming to Macarthur's defense, Phil Johnson states that taking the mark of the Beast "is not categorically said to be unpardonable. (That would contradict Matthew 12:31.)"  What does Matthew 12:31 say? 

"Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men."

How does Phil Johnson figure that asserting that the taking of the Mark is an unpardonable sin contradicts Matthew 12:31?  This verse states that the only sin which will not be forgiven men is "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit."  I suppose Phil Johnson's rationale is that this verse doesn't explicitly state that taking the mark of the Beast is the only sin not forgiven men.  But the taking of the mark of the Beast is certainly blasphemy against the Holy Spirit and I would say it is the ultimate in Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit!  Taking the Mark represents a complete and total rejection of God...

I see no contradiction between these two statements:

1.  Taking the mark of the Beast shall not be forgiven men
2.  Only blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven men      
thefarrside

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Quote:
Originally Posted by IDChristian
This is the hubris of these people. Phil Johnson quoting the scripture and then following it up with a direct contradiction. What a diabolical confidence! It truly is astounding that people cannot see it for what it is. You almost have to wonder if it isn't some kind of matrix where as long as you are in the matrix of MacArthurism, you have no choice. You live by the illusion and all truth is his truth. Could be said of any cult or ism. When you come out of the matrix and you meet Jesus Christ and you take his word at face value, you find that you do have a choice. There is reality apart from the matrix. Now you are able to see that the denials of MacArthur and associates are subtle but definite. Not having the support of the Matrix might be a little fearful and destabilizing for the first bit, but if truth becomes important to you, the loss of support will become minor. Believing it's not of works that we come to know Christ but it is a gift of his righteousness that is given as we believe the truths of his Word is true freedom. No matrix needed. We have been born again, we are given Light of Christ and the gift of the Holy Spirit to guide us. He is our reality.


Extreme pride, absolutely!  They wear it like a badge and they'll condemn anybody for trying to knock it off their shoulder. 

You are right regarding Phil Johnson's direct contradiction when he said "Though, MacArthur issues a stern warning against taking the mark."  Wow!  Did he go out on a limb with that one, or what!  If there's no problem with taking the mark...if you can still get saved afterwards, then why not take the mark and eat for Pete's sake.  Also, party until the last minute and then have a death bed confession with Satan's mark of 'ownership' on your forehead or hand.   You know what, the fact is the church is dead, DOA, and apostate just as the bible told us it would be in the last days.  When you see huge false ministries like MacArthur's kingdom spread all over the earth with its tentacles like an octopus, it's time to look up because our redemption draweth nigh.  That famous picture painted of Jesus knocking at a door is not the door to some individual's heart.  No!  He's knocking on the door of the church and they will not let him in.  Jesus said to the Laodicean church, if you had just come to me I would have given you clothes of white but you would not.  That's a lost church refusing to believe in Jesus.
Your use of the word matrix is very good.  The frustration for me is that acquaintances of mine who claim to be believers, but are caught in the matrix, will not listen to a single solitary word of warning regarding false teachers and preachers and come out of their respective apostate churches.  You can put the evidence right in front of their face and they'll say stupid things excusing the apostasy.  They don't want to make an issue of it.  They like their church.  They just love the praise and worship time.  Their Sunday School classes or home groups are such a close knit group of people.  I get this all the time, "Well, I go to church to feel good.  It makes my whole week better."  Whose spirit made them feel better.  I do not believe it was the Holy Spirit.  Now I know these people and the churches they attend and every one without question is purpose driven to the bone.  What can you do with that?  They love the look of godliness but they hate truth.    2 Timothy 3:5  Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

 All you can do is warn and if the warning is not heeded then there is nothing else you can do.  Right?  They are in the matrix by choice.  They have taken the blue AND the red pill. 

 I will say, though, that after I left the apostate church, had no choice, the loneliness in the beginning was debilitating.  But God comforted me and now I feel so clean being out of it.  That's really the word.  I feel clean.  Fleeing the apostasy has been wonderful.  God has not given me one single indication that I was wrong.   I will remain here until God directs otherwise.    

IDChristian

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Reply with quote  #7 
Rightly said, Watchman...I see this kind of irrational thinking over and over with these guys. When you don't take the Word literally, when you try to justify MacArthur's crazy thinking...the Scripture takes a hit. I really believe God is giving very obvious clues to a liar and deceiver. Remember when God sent a lying spirit to deceive one of the kings in order to send him to his death? Well...here sits a lie, that if believed, will send many to their deaths if they believe it.
thefarrside

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Hey, fellow believer, you are so right about that lie.  Oh, that lie.....that lie about the mark of the beast is, to me, the most damnable lie out there.  I mean, people have their differences over this thing or that thing in the Revelation of Jesus Christ and no body gets hurt over it, right?  But this lie, this lie will send countless millions to hell if they do what John MacArthur, Brannon Howse, and Jimmy DeYoung, have said.  That's what I said in my letter to Brannon.  I said, "How can you justify telling people that when the scripture is so plain that people will be damned for taking the mark?"  Got no response.  I was foolish to expect one. 

Regarding the mark, I believe the mark is going to be the Star of Solomon.  Here in Texas, kid you not, that star is absolutely everywhere.  You can travel all over this state and it's all over it.  The masses are getting so mind controlled in constantly seeing it.  Now, it's being placed inside a circle which is the most evil symbol in the occult.  People have them on their barns, homes, fences, signs of every kind, bridges, buildings, billboards, semi-trucks, logos of businesses and on and on and on.  People will have no problem one day having it branded to their foreheads or hands.  There is also a single star falling or streaking downward in thousands of signs and logos.  This star represents Satan.  The pyramid is everywhere.  This DFW metroplex has got to be one of the most masonic, occultic cities in America.  Novus ordo seclorum is place on a new building in a very strategic place where no one can miss it.  There is a three story eye.  Just an eye ball in downtown Dallas.  It has a blue iris and it has blood veins running through it.  Of course it is the all-seeing eye, but it has an eerie resemblance to C.E.R.N.   The esoteric signs for the new world order are everywhere here and 99.9% are blind to it.  

watchmanwakes

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Quote:
Originally Posted by thefarrside
Regarding the mark, I believe the mark is going to be the Star of Solomon.  Here in Texas, kid you not, that star is absolutely everywhere.  You can travel all over this state and it's all over it.  The masses are getting so mind controlled in constantly seeing it.


I also believe that the "Star of David", "Seal of Solomon", "Star of Remphan", hexagram will be the mark of the Beast.  Six Pointed Star--The Mark of the Beast is a great article which shows this..

"But ye have born the tabernacle of your Moloch, and Chiun (Remphan) your images, the STAR OF YOUR GOD, which ye made to yourselves. (Amos 5:26-27)
IDChristian

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https://socioecohistory.wordpress.com/2010/09/04/hexagram-star-of-david-or-star-of-lucifer/

Excerpt: ...is a Satanic symbol. Satanists and occult practitioners use it for calling Satan and demons! Former Satanist, Bill Schnoebelen (now born again Christian) “A hexagram must be present to call… Revelation 2:9 – …. and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, ....

Excerpt: In 1897 the hexagram became the symbol of the Zionist movement. Zionist movement was funded by the Rothschilds and had a kin relation to Freemasonry. A masonic book called the Second Mile reveals that “the six pointed star is a very ancient symbol, and one of the most powerful”. This symbol is very prevalent in Freemasonry.

Excerpt: So how did this ancient occult symbol find its way onto the Great Seal of the United States? Why is it so common in churches? Do you know what symbol represents Luciferianism? Helena Blavatsky, who wrote that Lucifer is the true god, incorporated the hexagram in the emblem of the Theosophical Society. She was a 32nd degree Mason.

Since this is the mark or flag of the Beast system or the Luciferian, Synagogue of Satan, it would be logical for it to be a mark for those who belong to it. It continues to boggle my mind as to why ministries claiming to be Christian use this flag as an allegiance to Israel when there is so much information availablie to show that it is rather, an allegiance to Satan. There's plenty of info on this site about the roots and fruits of Zionism and their flag.

BTW...very nicely done Farrside...your use of statements from the horse's mouth are undeniable...to those who have ears to hear the truth.
IDChristian

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Wanted to add that I believe there will be a supernatural change implemented when someone takes the mark, whether it is demonic possession from worshipping demons or a literal change in our DNA. So much happening in the area of biogenics and tampering with third strand DNA. The possibilities are significant, especially with the age of quantum computing and CERN and the world being connected by this networking system on every level. So the mark will not just be a tattoo, it will have, I imagine, a promise of immortality, instantaneous self-healing properties and promoted as the only hope for economic stability...in return for an ultimate choice made for allegiance to Satan...receiving his mark.
thefarrside

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Yes, I believe in the supernatural change as well, something having to do with DNA.  Not a scientist here and can't say I understand all this but I am of the persuasion that it is an initiation whereby the person swearing allegiance to the real Antichrist will be physically changed.

As for the direct transcription from Howse and DeYoung's work, I used to do this sort of thing for a living and it is just so much more "thrilling" to get the actual bona fide quote.  It nails these guys to the wall.
IDChristian

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yeah....so much for SO4J trying to implant the idea of "rumor" in the minds of the naive.

Agreed on the idea of "initiation" as it has to be freewill and choice or it's not true worship. The choice will be death or agree to allegiance to the beast. We're almost there. Many foreshadowings of the anti-christ but once the restrainer is removed, the tribulation begins for real. The stage is set, the beast computerized system is in place, the cry for peace and security is deafening, the chaos has been created and now for the final solution...

Luke 21:28And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
armylngst

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I apologize for what I have written so far, because I did not understand everything that John MacArthur believed/was saying.

I have not studied Revelation in quite some time.  Going to Philip Johnson's site, John MacArthur's commentary on Revelation, and comments made by more level headed people, my original beliefs are not fully supported, but not discredited either.  (My original beliefs on Revelation are, if you have any inkling of who Jesus is, and what salvation is and the rapture happens before you are saved, you are going to hell with no hope of salvation.  If you receive the mark, you are going to hell with no hope of salvation.)  

From John MacArthur's commentary on Revelation 12-22, Chapter 5 page 62-63: "As part of his plan to enforce the worship of Antichrist, the false prophet will require all categories of unbelievers, summarized as the small and great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead.  Mark (charagma; from charasso(the o has a line over it (I don't know how to type that though)), 'I engrave') was the term for images or names of the emperor on Roman coins.  In the ancient world, such marks (tattoos or brands) were commonly given to slaves, soldiers, and devotees of religious cults (cf. Gal. 6:17).  God sealed, with a mark on the forehead, the 144,000 to preserve them from his wrath against the unbelieving world ([Rev] 7:2-3); the false prophet marks the unsaved to preserve them from Antichrist's wrath against God's people.  The mark will signify that the person bearing it is a worshiper and loyal follower of the Antichrist.  In much the same way, the Roman emperors required their subjects to prove their loyalty by offering sacrifices to Caesar.  Those who refused, like those who refuse to take the Antichrist's mark, were subject to execution."

As for why John MacArthur believes it may be possible for those who receive the mark to find redemption, a clip from a 1993 sermon:

 "And the people of the world will take some mark on their hand or their forehead which indicates their loyalty to the beast, as we saw back in chapter 13. And what this angel is doing is saying...Look, here we are at the very end, you have heard the hundred and forty-four thousand, you've heard the two witnesses, you've heard all of the people who have proclaimed their faith in Christ, Jew and Gentile, and some of them were martyred. And certainly in the very martyrdom itself they gave testimony of the grace of God in Christ. You have heard an angel flying in mid-heaven. You've been warned by another angel who has pronounced doom. And here is one last note for you, if you still will worship the beast, if you still will worship his image, if you are still going to maintain your identification clear on out through all of this, verse 10, "You also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God.""

At the end of that same message he says: "...end of verse 11, for those who worship the beast and his image and whoever receives the mark of his name. Simply, those who will not turn their allegiance from Antichrist to Christ. What a warning. " (From a comment on Philip Johnson's site.)

So his whole idea is based on the third angel giving a warning, which means that anyone hearing the warning can respond to said warning.  (Not that they will respond, just that they could respond.)  What if they have the mark and respond?  That would mean that someone with the mark has just been redeemed.  (For to respond to the warning is to reject the Beast and his system.)  

So...some questions:  Where does John MacArthur tell his congregation that they can get the mark?  Note: I listened to what he said, and that isn't it.  Not even close.

bjw

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Reply with quote  #15 
MacArthur's interpretation of these passages is not the only one, and many Bible scholars teach these sections of the Book of Revelations are giving differing accounts of the same time period, and others disagree as to when the rapture occurs.  If the interpretations were really as cut and dry as MacArthur is saying all scholars would agree as to the meaning of these passages.  For instance, the Dutch Reformed poster Waldens that used to post here believes the view that most of these are past events fulfilled with the Roman empire, and we are now in the millenial reign that is not a literal thousand years.  My point is there are people with much more education than MacArthur and Johnson that would disagree with them, so manipulating Greek and comparing modern translations with King James does not necessarily prove what they are saying as it is still their interpretation.
 
Also, I don't think posters here believe he was instructing the church to take the mark of the beast, just that he was saying it is still possible to repent once you take it.  This is a slippery slope because it can lead a person who is left to endure the tribulation to believe it is okay to take the mark.  It is the opinion of most Bible scholars that taking the mark is akin to blasphemy of the Holy Ghost, since as you even indicated, these people will have witnessed yet rejected the testimony of Jesus.
 
Further, as I said in other thread's on here, if a disagreement with MacArthur's eschatology were my only issue with this cult, I would not be on here today, but when you consider all the people that have been hurt by this ministry, even as far away as Italy as indicated in one of the other threads, it shows this is nothing but a destructive cult.  I have had friends who have lost friends and family over this organization.  Counting the issues in these threads as well as on watchmanwakes and watchpray's websites, they are too numerous to list and are ample proof of this.
watch-pray

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Reply with quote  #16 
MacArthur's earliest recorded statement on the Mark seems to be Sept 24,1980 during a Bible Q&A at his church:

http://www.gty.org/resources/sermons/1301-I/

QUESTIONER: Oh, my question is in regard to the latter half of the Tribulation period, when...when men will be required to have the mark of the beast in order to buy or sell. My question is once the person takes the mark, is there possibility of Him coming to Christ?

JOHN: Yes, I think, you know, in the seven-year Tribulation coming in the future, we're gonna get into this, so probably a week from Sunday night, maybe this Sunday night, maybe a week, I'm not sure. But the Tribulation is a seven-year period, right? The Rapture of the church, seven-year Tribulation, then Christ returns, sets up His Kingdom. Now, in that seven-year period, really two things happen. God begins to judge the world in...with a series of holocausts; and, at the same time, He begins to redeem His people Israel; and in the process of this, the antichrist establishes his rule; and in order to function in the economy of the antichrist, you have to take the mark of the beast. The mark being the number of a man, Revelation 13, 666. Six is the number of man, right? Seven is the number of perfection, and man always falls short of perfection, 666, always sixes, never seven. So the number man, and apparently what's gonna happen, you take the mark on your hand or on your forehead; and we've talked a lot about that, you know, that...that that's kind of the computer situation. We're now moving fast toward the time when we're going to have to do everything we do by cards and by numbers and all of that, and those number...the thing about a card that's a problem is you lose it, and they've already devised systems to put the number on your hand and on your forehead, and you go through a scanner and, you know, that's how you buy and sell. It's automatically deducted from your bank account.

Now, the question is, if you're living in the Tribulation period, and you take this mark, in other words, you identify with the beast's empire, will you still be able to be redeemed? And I think the answer to that is yes. Yes, otherwise there would be no salvation of anybody in the end of the Tribulation; and you've got to have the salvation of folks in the end of the Tribulation. You're gonna have the Jews redeemed. You're gonna have, according to Revelation chapter 7, "An innumerable number of Gentiles redeemed, so many they can't even be counted across the face of the earth." So I don't think the fact that someone takes that is a sentence to...to permanency anymore than you being a part of this world system once in your life means you have to be a part of the system all your life. Well, especially when 144,000 don't start their ministry till the second half.

QUESTIONER: Yeah, that's true, yeah.

JOHN: That'd make it a little tough.

- end quote -

So the fact that, on Oct. 30, 2013, Phil Johnson defended MacArthur's 1980 teaching as his current view confirms that J Mac still stands by his false teaching. So why the contradiction between this and MacArthur's commentaries and study bible?  Apparently John MacArthur is not the sole author of all of the books attributed to him, including his commentaries and study bible. If you look at the introductory pages of the MacArthur Study Bible, in the "Personal Notes," he credits a number of the faculty of The Masters Seminary for their theological and editorial contributions to the work. I have copied part of that section below:

MacArthur Study Bible
Personal Notes

"Although I personally bear full responsibility for all the notes in The MacArthur Study Bible because they all have come from me and through me, a work of this magnitude with the responsibility to be accurate could only have been done with a team of supportive co-workers who committed themselves to excellence. Many friends have participate in the team -- all of whom deserve to be commended and thanked.

"My highest gratitude belongs to my friend and ministry partner, Dr. Richard Mayhue, Senior Vice President and Dean of The Master's Seminary. He has worked next to me through the whole project, laboring beyond anyone while serving as project manager, OT and NT researcher, editor and counselor. His exceptional gift for management, along with his vast knowledge of Scripture and doctrine, coupled with our one-mindedness theologically, plus his writing skill, have made for a more effective partnership. 

"Gratitude in abundance must be given to the faculty of The Master's Seminary for their assistance in original research and carefully prepared first draft material for the study notes on the Old Testament. Using the foundation of that original research and material, I worked and reworked the study notes into their final form.

"Thank you to Dr. Irv Busenitz, Dr. Trevor Craigen, Prof. Dave Deuel. Prof. Keith Essex, Dr. Richard Mayhue, Dr. Larry Pettegrew, Dr. Jim Rosscup, Prof. Jim Stitzinger, Dr. Bob Thomas, and Dr. George Zemek.

"Because I have studied and expositionally preached through nearly all the New Testament, my own original research was available to be summarized into the NT study notes. A team composed of The Master's Seminary faculty and editors at Grace to You, who work regularly editing my books, accepted the task of spending long hours culling the salient features from my research into study note form. Likewise, from that first draft, I worked to bring the material to its final form.

"Thank you to Dr. Bill Barrick, Dave Douglass, Dave Enos, Dr. David Farnell, Phil Johnson, Garry Knussman, Dr. Richard Mayhue, Tom Pennington, Dr. Larry Pettigrew, and Mike Taylor."

armylngst

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Reply with quote  #17 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bjw
MacArthur's interpretation of these passages is not the only one, and many Bible scholars teach these sections of the Book of Revelations are giving differing accounts of the same time period, and others disagree as to when the rapture occurs.  If the interpretations were really as cut and dry as MacArthur is saying all scholars would agree as to the meaning of these passages.  For instance, the Dutch Reformed poster Waldens that used to post here believes the view that most of these are past events fulfilled with the Roman empire, and we are now in the millenial reign that is not a literal thousand years.  My point is there are people with much more education than MacArthur and Johnson that would disagree with them, so manipulating Greek and comparing modern translations with King James does not necessarily prove what they are saying as it is still their interpretation.


John MacArthur deals with dispensationalism (though not fully).  He believes in pre-trib rapture.  Using this, and his sermon from 1993, one can see a straightforward rendering of the passages dealing with the third angel presenting a possibility of redemption for those who receive the mark if they listen to the angel and repent.  That does not mean it will happen, just that the possibility exists.  For example the first angel preaches the gospel, so there is the chance for everyone on earth to hear the gospel and repent.  (From the rest of the passage, it appears that no one (or almost no one) actually listens and repents).  The gospel was put out there, so they have no excuse. As for the millennium being now, have you seen all the terrorist attacks as of late, and mass shootings, etc.  It doesn't sound like Satan has been bound away for any amount of time...  (All that to say that his answer has a basis in the book of Revelation.  Could it still be wrong...well, it is the book of Revelation...)
 
Quote:
Also, I don't think posters here believe he was instructing the church to take the mark of the beast, just that he was saying it is still possible to repent once you take it.  This is a slippery slope because it can lead a person who is left to endure the tribulation to believe it is okay to take the mark.  It is the opinion of most Bible scholars that taking the mark is akin to blasphemy of the Holy Ghost, since as you even indicated, these people will have witnessed yet rejected the testimony of Jesus.


My wording was not perfect as this quote from watchmanwakes from the ecumenical thread says:
Quote:
Originally Posted by watchmanwakes
"So church leaders like Macarthur, who are giving their followers permission to take the Mark of the Beast and still be saved, are actually setting them up for the real Antichrist and real Mark of the Beast, which will be given during the Luciferic initiation at mid-Trib. (Rev. 13)"

MacArthur is not giving anyone permission to take the mark and still be saved.  Only God can do that.  All John MacArthur said was that he believes it may be possible for someone to be saved.  As he believes in the pre-trib rapture, he obviously is not giving them permission, as they won't be here in the first place.
 
Quote:
Further, as I said in other thread's on here, if a disagreement with MacArthur's eschatology were my only issue with this cult, I would not be on here today, but when you consider all the people that have been hurt by this ministry, even as far away as Italy as indicated in one of the other threads, it shows this is nothing but a destructive cult.  I have had friends who have lost friends and family over this organization.  Counting the issues in these threads as well as on watchmanwakes and watchpray's websites, they are too numerous to list and are ample proof of this.


I have come to not trust people who have said they have been hurt by a ministry.  Not so much because they may be lying, but because at the heart of the issue, it can be  the person who is at fault.  (The wording I just used is a major problem, so read on before saying anything.)  That is to say, a person who doesn't find what they are looking for, or doesn't like what they find, may consider that to be hurt caused by a ministry, or may decide to attack a ministry.  I have been in the military, and you would be surprised some of the ways people will explain a situation so they come out looking good, and their leadership looks bad.  Since it is the military, the leadership has come to recognize when these things happen.  (Some Soldiers believe that leaders don't know each other well enough to realize, wait, I know them and there is no way they did that, I need to check into this.)  This happens quite often, so I take these things with a grain of salt, especially if what is being said is an all out assault on someone.  Taking a one side story is the way to do great harm to people.  If that person is accountable to God, I don't want to be someone who is attacking them when there may be no actual problem.

I spoke with someone who had once been a pastor, and basically gave it up because he was being attacked for all kinds of things that were not true, and physically could no longer handle the position.  (The heart doesn't like high stress.)  Do I know if he actually had issues?  No, but in some cases you can understand.  (Once again, having been in the military and having seen/heard it happen.  (Imagine being a teacher in school, and if any student said anything at all, you are fired without any kind of investigation.  Could you handle walking on glass day by day, your job hanging on the whim of your students?)
bjw

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Reply with quote  #18 
Quote:
Originally Posted by armylngst


John MacArthur deals with dispensationalism (though not fully).  He believes in pre-trib rapture.  Using this, and his sermon from 1993, one can see a straightforward rendering of the passages dealing with the third angel presenting a possibility of redemption for those who receive the mark if they listen to the angel and repent.  That does not mean it will happen, just that the possibility exists.  For example the first angel preaches the gospel, so there is the chance for everyone on earth to hear the gospel and repent.  (From the rest of the passage, it appears that no one (or almost no one) actually listens and repents).  The gospel was put out there, so they have no excuse.


I believe if the passage meant this it would say it. 
Quote:

As for the millennium being now, have you seen all the terrorist attacks as of late, and mass shootings, etc.  It doesn't sound like Satan has been bound away for any amount of time...  
 
While I don't agree with the Reformed position, they get around this by saying the gospel being spread all over the world is proof Satan is bound.


Quote:


MacArthur is not giving anyone permission to take the mark and still be saved.  Only God can do that.  All John MacArthur said was that he believes it may be possible for someone to be saved.  As he believes in the pre-trib rapture, he obviously is not giving them permission, as they won't be here in the first place.

Lordship salvation is a heresy that offers no real assurance of salvation, since many go for decades claiming to be saved and then claim to realize they never had true salvation, since they weren't producing enough "fruits."  Many in the audience when the question was asked probably wonder if they may not be really saved, and may later realize they do not produce enough evidence for salvation and will be left behind after the rapture.  This is one reason most suffer from nightmares upon first leaving this cult, and I know this from experience.  Getting left behind is one fear they have and use to control the members, as well as going to hell, as was used on me by counselors many times.
 

Quote:

I have come to not trust people who have said they have been hurt by a ministry.  Not so much because they may be lying, but because at the heart of the issue, it can be  the person who is at fault.  (The wording I just used is a major problem, so read on before saying anything.)  That is to say, a person who doesn't find what they are looking for, or doesn't like what they find, may consider that to be hurt caused by a ministry, or may decide to attack a ministry.  I have been in the military, and you would be surprised some of the ways people will explain a situation so they come out looking good, and their leadership looks bad.  Since it is the military, the leadership has come to recognize when these things happen.  (Some Soldiers believe that leaders don't know each other well enough to realize, wait, I know them and there is no way they did that, I need to check into this.)  This happens quite often, so I take these things with a grain of salt, especially if what is being said is an all out assault on someone.  Taking a one side story is the way to do great harm to people.  If that person is accountable to God, I don't want to be someone who is attacking them when there may be no actual problem.

I have had the military analogy used on me by every follower of MacArthur I have debated, even when I was still there.  There is no comparison.  A pastor is to nurture you and give you a safe haven away from the world, whereas a drill seargent is to break you down to give you survival skills for a war zone.  Jesus said, "My yoke is easy, my burden is light and I will give you rest."  This is not what drill seargents say to people.


Quote:

I spoke with someone who had once been a pastor, and basically gave it up because he was being attacked for all kinds of things that were not true, and physically could no longer handle the position.  (The heart doesn't like high stress.)  Do I know if he actually had issues?  No, but in some cases you can understand.  (Once again, having been in the military and having seen/heard it happen.  (Imagine being a teacher in school, and if any student said anything at all, you are fired without any kind of investigation.  Could you handle walking on glass day by day, your job hanging on the whim of your students?)


I am a school teacher, and kids have submitted complaints about me.  However, these are investigated by witnesses and checked with past complaints to detect patterns.  This is how Principals know when kids make things up about a teacher or have an axe to grind.  I encourage you to look at both sides of the issues with this cult.  People all over are saying the same things.  Reputable scholars have written refutations of lordship salvation.  Research the characteristics of a destructive cult from cult experts like Steve Hassan or Rick Ross.  Read others stories, people who don't know each other are coming forward with similar experiences, that should say something:
http://www.thewatchmanwakes.com/John-Macarthur-s-Cult.html
armylngst

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Reply with quote  #19 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bjw


I believe if the passage meant this it would say it.


I believe it is because of when the passage occurs that John MacArthur sees it that way.  (People have already received the mark, yet have not heard that there would be a punishment for it.  I believe this might be the reasoning John MacArthur is using to see it as a warning.)  It is not a incorrect view.  It may be incorrect, but the rationality behind it is solid.  
 
Quote:
While I don't agree with the Reformed position, they get around this by saying the gospel being spread all over the world is proof Satan is bound.


Oh... I am Calvinist leaning, but ascribe to dispensationalism, pre-trib type.  (I do not agree with all the points in dispensationalism, but do not agree with the convental view.  Not by a long shot.)

Quote:
Lordship salvation is a heresy that offers no real assurance of salvation, since many go for decades claiming to be saved and then claim to realize they never had true salvation, since they weren't producing enough "fruits."  Many in the audience when the question was asked probably wonder if they may not be really saved, and may later realize they do not produce enough evidence for salvation and will be left behind after the rapture.  This is one reason most suffer from nightmares upon first leaving this cult, and I know this from experience.  Getting left behind is one fear they have and use to control the members, as well as going to hell, as was used on me by counselors many times.


I tried to read the Gospel According to Jesus, but had the same issue I always do.  I have trouble reading books in general.  What I read seemed fine, and if properly understood, should not cause the problems you have stated.  It is difficult to understand though.  I even read the Gospel According to the Apostles when I was a teenager, and it made complete sense to me.  I did not see any problems with what it said that I remember (though it was well over 20 years ago).  It is possible that he is correct, but too extreme in view, but I would have to attempt to read the Gospel According to Jesus in order to see.  Understand that this goes against the view of saying a prayer, living like the devil, now go to heaven.  

Quote:
I have had the military analogy used on me by every follower of MacArthur I have debated, even when I was still there.  There is no comparison.  A pastor is to nurture you and give you a safe haven away from the world, whereas a drill seargent is to break you down to give you survival skills for a war zone.  Jesus said, "My yoke is easy, my burden is light and I will give you rest."  This is not what drill seargents say to people.


You misunderstood the analogy.  I wasn't making an analogy.  I was talking about people who say they have been harmed by the church.  In the military (as I was, and a Sergeant/NCO), Soldiers would say all kinds of things to get leaders they did not like into trouble.  Something would happen, and the Soldier would twist it to make their leadership look bad.  The problem for them was that the leadership is usually tightly knit, so we could tell if the Soldier was being truthful or not.  (Also, tight knit that one might be outside the door when something happens, and so already know that the Soldier is lying, or he is blowing an incident way out of proportion.)  (Like that person you got for saying that women should be able to preach and teach in the church (over a man)).  I question a lot of what was said in that thread, due to experience.  That is all I meant by bringing up the military.  (You cannot just accept what people says without investigating it yourself.  Some people are very spiteful.)

I am trying to wrap this up to not upset watch too much.
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