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benyahmin

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Hello,

I would like to start a dedicated threat on Lordship Salvation and ask about your experiences with the doctrine around the MacArthur cult and beyond. Its origins would also be interesting. I recall I took some time back a few years ago to even encounter the term. I was looking for discipleship abuse the way I had experienced it with Daniel Willoughby from Biblical Ministries Worldwide, who is a big promoter of JMA and who taught at and nourished EBTC which is a training school in Berlin connected to GCC. They also host a shepards conference. I was there in 2005.

Please share some of your views and experiences and let's expose this heresy with the bible. I will share thoughts later when I get home.
watchmanwakes

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My understanding is that Macarthur teaches that in order to be saved one must "make Jesus the Lord of one's life" which means that salvation comes through obedience.  This false teaching could also be called a works-based salvation.  But God's Word teaches that salvation can only come through faith in Jesus Christ.  If we try to get to Heaven through works, then we will have denied the only grace by which we can be saved and we would be making God a debtor.  So Macarthur's teaching is evil as so many of his teachings.  Perhaps BJW who has attended GCC could explain it a bit better.

bjw

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What I noticed about Lordship Salvation was how deceptive the term itself is and the way they define it.  If we were to call GCC on the phone and just ask to get the definition of this term, they would say something like, "It means that in order to be saved you must make Jesus lord of your life."  Most Christians would say they agree with this and say, "Oh, that must mean these people are good Christians."  The deception is in what must you do to make Jesus lord of your life?  GCC teaches all other Christians believe in "cheap grace," meaning you can just hear the Gospel, mentally accept it, and now you are saved.  This is actually not true and most Christians do not believe this, which is part of the reason this scam does not work very well on people that have visited other Christian churches over the years.  Somehow, to accept lordship salvation, the person must be convinced of this strawman argument that all other Christians are believing this.  

How they define "make Jesus lord of your life" is where the deception comes in.  You have a list of items that must be present in your life to earn salvation, and these must increase constantly or your salvation is called into question through the "Restoration Process" where you must be counseled on sins you commit making sure you do not sin more than three times, or you must be shunned by all others until you repent, which usually involves more counseling. So, making Jesus "lord of your life" is a lot more complicated than it sounds.  Watchmanwakes is right it is definitely a works based doctrine, ignoring any aspect of the blood of Christ for forgiveness.  I saw students crying in their dormrooms at night because they were scared they weren't doing enough to be saved. 

Another part of the deception is that most are not told about lordship salvation at first.  New students at TMU and new converts at GCC are typically not told about it for awhile, which may explain why you never heard it at your church.  You mention your church is "EV Free" and I can tell you that most EV Free churches are part of this network.  In fact, when I was living with one of MacArthur's executives he was assigned to be assistant pastor at one EV Free church, which was basically a satellite campus of GCC, while attending services at GCC at night.  I asked what EV Free was, and he told me it was a denomination headed by Chuck Swindoll that was basically just on board with MacArthur's lordship movement.  So, don't know much about Swindoll or his role in this, but the EV Free churches in the area were being controlled by these people.  They were implementing lordship salvation.

When people ask about the terminology they are hearing and the things that set lordship salvation apart from other denominations, they are usually fed the line that they probably already believe these ideas, they just express them using different terminology.  This works to stifle any criticism at first.  To make Jesus "lord of your life" you have to be expanding the items in your life from the list I mentioned earlier, and I'll quote it here for the sake of the thread.  To refute lordship salvation biblically, this list would be the place to start since it is basically a "hopscotch" through the Bible to attempt to prove this doctrine, taking each passage out of context.  Anyway, here it is:

Quote:
The Character of Genuine Saving Faith

I. Evidences That Neither Prove Nor Disprove One's Faith

Visible Morality: Matthew 19:16-21; 23:27.
Intellectual Knowledge: Romans 1:21; 2:17ff.
Religious Involvement: Matthew 25:1-10
Active Ministry: Matthew 7:21-24
Conviction of Sin: Acts 24:25
Assurance: Matthew 23
Time of Decision: Luke 8:13, 14

II. The Fruit/Proofs of Authentic/True Christianity:

Love for God: Psalm 42:1ff; 73:25; Luke 10:27; Romans 8:7
Repentance from Sin: Psalm 32:5; Proverbs 28:13; Romans 7:14ff; 2 Corinthians 7:10; 1 John 1:8-10
Genuine Humility: Psalm 51:17; Matthew 5:1-12; James 4:6, 9ff.
Devotion to God's Glory: Psalm 105:3; 115:1; Isaiah 43:7, 48:10ff.; Jeremiah 9:23, 24; 1 Corinthians 10:31
Continual Prayer: Luke 18:1; Ephesians 6:18ff.; Philippians 4:6ff.; 1 Timothy 2:1-4; James 5:16-18
Selfless Love: 1 John 2:9ff, 3:14; 4:7ff.
Separation from the World: 1 Corinthians 2:12; James 4:4ff.; 1 John 2:15-17, 5:5
Spiritual Growth: Luke 8:15; John 15:1-6; Ephesians 4:12-16
Obedient Living: Matthew 7:21; John 15:14ff.; Romans 16:26; 1 Peter 1:2, 22; 1 John 2:3-5

If List I is true of a person and List II is false, there is cause to question the validity of one's profession of faith. Yet if List II is true, then the top list will be also.

III. The Conduct of the Gospel:

Proclaim it: Matthew 4:23
Defend it: Jude 3
Demonstrate it: Philippians 1:27
Share it: Philippians 1:5
Suffer for it: 2 Timothy 1:8
Don't hinder it: 1 Corinthians 9:16
Be not ashamed: Romans 1:16
Preach it: 1 Corinthians 9:16
Be empowered: 1 Thessalonians 1:5
Guard it: Galatians 1:6-8

Adapted from John MacArthur, The MacArthur Study Bible, p. 2190.


Another aspect we haven't discussed yet is how much this cult is influenced by Druidry.  I think the phrase "Lordship Salvation" is another example of that.  I was in a used bookstore recently and I had some time to kill so I looked at some Druid books since I saw the expose on here about MacArthur being a Druid.  One thing I saw that was interesting was that they consider their male aspect of God to be called "baal," which means "lord" in the original language.  Also interesting was that this "baal" or "lord" as the male aspect of God was symbolized by a sunburst, which is the logo that is used by GCC and I think on "Grace to You."  I know I've seen more than one logo with a sunburst on it.  Researching Druidry may reveal more that can be used to refute this doctrine.
benyahmin

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Reply with quote  #4 
Hi,

it sounds a lot like the roman catholic "dispension of grace" doctrine. The RCC will admit that one is saved by grace only and that Jesus bore all sins. However, grace is continually dispensed. So the actual truth is that this is roman catholicism repackaged.
My belly tumbles when I read the list what has to be present. I would rather go by the bible:

1) subjective sins are "all things that do not happen by faith
2) objective sins are simply unrighteousness

Number 2 is to be determined by the church if there can be no agreement between two bretheren. This step is avoided in EVERY church I have ever seen. Nothing is ever brought before the church for judgement. Every conflict is hidden in a backroom with the elders and the conflicting parties.

bjw

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Reply with quote  #5 
This is very similar to Catholicism in a lot of ways, and grace is continually dispensed and you must continually confess to someone who is mentoring you or a church elder, so that is very similar to the Catholic practice of confession.  Lists 2 and 3 are the ones they emphasize and that you must keep expanding on, whereas List 1 is what you are said to be lacking if you are slacking off on the other two lists.  As I mentioned in another thread, I took a guy to a theme park with me and he kept witnessing to people in line for the rides because he didn't want to fall behind on his works while at the park that day.  The conversations would start out, "Have you ever heard of John MacArthur?" and if they said no he would go on about the latest books and how good MacArthur's teachings were.  

As for the Restoration Process, my experience at GCC was that there is much potential for abuse the way it is laid out.  They claim it is taken from Matthew 18, but they stop before the verses about unlimited forgiveness ("70 times 7") so you are left with shunning people after they sin three times, a blatant misreading of the passage.  Further, failing to do more positive things since your last evaluation (witnessing, studying the Bible, etc.) is considered a sin and you are put on the restoration process for that as well.  You must always keep doing more and more, which leads to an eventual burn out. 

They hide things in the back room to avoid the bad publicity.  When crimes are committed you are to defer to the restoration process and not notify the police.  I was talked into this once when physical violence was done to me, and I don't think Jesus ever intended his teaching about how to handle conflicts between friends to be used to cover up crimes.

Which brings us to the third list.  Notice the phrases "defend" and "guard" are used here.  This means lordship salvation must be defended and guarded.  This explains the man taking pictures of you, and those of us on the forum here that have been harassed or threatened in some way.  They honestly don't feel they are doing anything wrong, since it is the will of God to defend and guard their beliefs.  This is what is scary about this list.
bjw

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Reply with quote  #6 
There was one more thing I wanted to add in light of the phrase "grace is continually dispensed."  I think the similarities to Catholicism is one reason they get many converts from the Catholic community, to the point that they send missionaries into Catholic communities to try to snag the less active Catholics.

One doctrine I never could agree with was that they believe God stops hearing your prayers if you sin, and you cannot pray again to God until the sin is confessed.  This is one reason they are always doing the restoration process, since people cannot pray until they get straightened out again with God.  I always thought the opposite was true.  If you are taken in habitual sin that is the time you should be praying the most.  Since, it is only through prayer you will be healed from this.  For instance, if someone is addicted to drugs or pornography they should be praying constantly for the Lord to take this from them.  I believe this is part of true repentance.  However, to teach people that they cannot go to the Lord for help and must go to church officials before they can pray again is just ridiculous.  

They used to make the comparison that when you make your wife mad she runs into the bedroom and slams the door, locking you out, and that it is the same with God, he runs to the bedroom and slams the door and refuses to talk with you until you change your ways.  I always felt this example was blasphemous.  They would say until you restore your fellowship with God through the restoration process or confession you cannot pray, you will have more accidents and bad things happen in your life, and you may later realize you were self-deceived and not saved.

I noticed all of them would confess their sins through a private prayer at both waking up and going to sleep.  While there's nothing wrong with this as we should pray to God about our sins, their motives are all wrong, thinking they will not get anything from God unless they make an itemized list of their sins during prayer, plus confess them to church officials.

I think this is something about Lordship Salvation that is very problematic, and it also has many similarities with Catholicism.
watchmanwakes

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Reply with quote  #7 
Thanks very much for that explanation of Macarthur's unbiblical Lordship Salvation.  You said, "Watchmanwakes is right it is definitely a works based doctrine, ignoring any aspect of the blood of Christ for forgiveness."

Now isn't it amazing that Macarthur's teaching "ignores any aspect of the blood of Christ for forgiveness."  And I know from researching Macarthur's teaching, that for at least 40 years, he has made numerous statements denying the blood of Jesus Christ.  For instance, one can now see videos in which Macarthur can be seen preaching that, "The blood of Jesus Christ has no power to save."  It's truly amazing his congregation hasn't yet run for the exists. 

And I would also like to mention given the previous thread comments that we should remember that Calvinism is the reformed theology of the Roman Catholic Church. 
watchmanwakes

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Quote:
Originally Posted by bjw

When crimes are committed you are to defer to the restoration process and not notify the police. 


There's a woman who used to comment on this forum whose son was raped by a member of a church pastored by a guy named Ramey, who had been trained in John Macarthur's schools.  Right after the rape the woman called the police who of course came to her home.  Who else was there at the same time?  Ramey was there doing his utmost to get the police not to make an arrest.  He was trying to convince the police that the matter should be handled by his church elders.  But the officer informed him that this was a serious crime against the state and that he needed to make the arrest (the person arrested was later convicted in court).  And as we have been told, Ramey's actions did anger this mother because Ramey was  really taking the side of the rapist and his family.  On a further note, it looks like the false Christians want all criminal abuse committed by church members to be handled in-house and outside the law (establishment).  Instead, the one's abused should just make their cases known to false Christian blogs like Wartburg Watch or they should contact false Christians like Billy Graham's nephew I think it is.  So BJW is absolutely right in this statement.  It's really an end around the establishment's (Gods) authority structure.  
jasonc65

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How would the Druids know about Baal by name? Was Armstrong right about an Israelite connection? Not that it matters. Things that make me go hmmm.
bjw

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Jasonc65,
Interesting idea.  I'm not sure about the Armstrong connection you mention, I did see this in the glossary of a book published by the Druids in the religion section of a used bookstore.  After I found out on here that MacArthur had Druid connections I thought I would pick the book up to see if I recognized anything from what I knew about MacArthur. The oak tree connection was there just as we discussed in the thread on Camp Regen. This book said in the glossary that baal was the male aspect of their god and that the word meant "lord" in the original language and that his emblem is a sunburst.  Just seeing the phrase "lord" emphasized jumped out at me right away.  Even more so when I saw that his emblem is a sunburst.  This is starting to pique my interest, I'm going to have to research this concept more to see what I can find out about it.  When you say Armstrong are you referring to the Herbert Armstrong that founded a church?  I'll have to see what I can find out about it.  Do you know what books he wrote on it?
bjw

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Quote:
Originally Posted by watchmanwakes


There's a woman who used to comment on this forum whose son was raped by a member of a church pastored by a guy named Ramey, who had been trained in John Macarthur's schools.  Right after the rape the woman called the police who of course came to her home.  Who else was there at the same time?  Ramey was there doing his utmost to get the police not to make an arrest.  He was trying to convince the police that the matter should be handled by his church elders.  But the officer informed him that this was a serious crime against the state and that he needed to make the arrest (the person arrested was later convicted in court).  And as we have been told, Ramey's actions did anger this mother because Ramey was  really taking the side of the rapist and his family.  On a further note, it looks like the false Christians want all criminal abuse committed by church members to be handled in-house and outside the law (establishment).  Instead, the one's abused should just make their cases known to false Christian blogs like Wartburg Watch or they should contact false Christians like Billy Graham's nephew I think it is.  So BJW is absolutely right in this statement.  It's really an end around the establishment's (Gods) authority structure.  
Have we heard anymore authentication regarding the stories posted in the "rape culture" thread elsewhere on this forum.  I think these three case (the two at TMC and the Ramey case) all three show where the Restoration Process is not only a failure and is not of God, but it encourages breaking the law and covering up criminal acts as well.
jasonc65

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Armstrong wrote books about the British in prophecy. Many of his claims are ridiculous. And Armstrong was a lordship salvationist. He believed that a believer is not born again until the resurrection. He taught that grace does not free us from the law but enables us to keep it. And keep it we must for salvation. MacArthurism is effectively the same thing. You cannot know that you are born again this side of eternity. Grace enables you to repent of sin, and if you fail, you were not truly saved.

I was delivered from Armstrong only to fall into the same thing. Grace empowers me, but it neither threatens me nor compels me. I am truly saved and kept by God's grace.

I think there may have been a Northern Israelite diaspora that extended as far as Britain, but I don't go for nonsense.
jasonc65

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The Catholic monstrance is also a sunburst. It is a monstrosity.
bjw

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Not to go off-topic, but you guys mentioning the Gideons just reminded me of something funny that happened in the student union building at TMC once.  The Gideons were there handing out Bibles in the lobby and I was on a couch waiting for a friend and listening to their exchanges with people were humorous, because they had no clue the college they were at required everyone to own at least one Bible, with more than one translation encouraged (the Romans course required you to read Romans out of five different translations).  I heard students and execs both accept the Bible and then strangely look at the Gideon and say "Now am I expected to give this to someone?  Why are you giving me a Bible?"  (probably thinking it was a program being set up by GCC where you had to use it to witness to someone.)  Some complimented them on what a wonderful ministry they thought the Gideons were and asked how they could help.  What was funny was the Gideons themselves kept using the same lines, "We are Christian businessmen who volunteer to purchase and give out free Bibles.  No, you are under no obligation, we would just like you to take a free Bible."  I heard this told to people over and over and it was hilarious after awhile.

Anyway, I'll watch for that Gideon symbol.  It should be interesting what watchmanwakes has to say about this as he has studied a lot about the migration of Jews and the Druids.  This is making me want to learn more about all of this history.
bjw

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Reply with quote  #15 
Jason,
It's also interesting how many corporate logos we see the sunburst on.  I do remember seeing the Catholic monstrance before as well.  I know even at Disneyland's newest park (California Adventure) their ferris wheel at the pier area was a sunburst until it was remodeled with a mickey mouse head put on it.
jasonc65

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I have never understood the need for five translations. The Mess-age is the worst.
watchmanwakes

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British Israelism is the false teaching that the lost tribes of Israel are now the British.  This teaching was put forth by men like HW Armstrong. 
jasonc65

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I agree. The notion that the Unites States is Manasseh is ridiculous.
followerofchrist

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Hello i'm new here.
The mother of whom you speak of asked me if I could make a correction to one of the comments.
She's not in the least upset but wants to make sure information that is made public about her son is accurate.
I'm certain no one here purposefully put wrong info.
It is correct Ramey showed up on scene shortly after the assault occurred and policed were called.
The perpetrators mother contacted Ramey.
The mother was in the ambulance with her child when Ramey walked up.
Now, Ramey had already spoke to the perps mother and her son prior to the arrival of Police.
He showed up pretty quick.
My friend had thrown the perp outside and locked the door to wait for police
She was protecting herself and her son.
According to her the police showed up and did a very through and professional job with the crime scene.
They took everything out of the room and closet where he lured her son.
The boy was taken immediately from the house separated from the mother to the ambulance with detectives/officers.
The mother was left in the house with two officers to be questioned.
Once they secured everything the mother was escorted to the ambulance to be with her son as they transported him to the hospital.
At this time Ramey walked up to the ambulance where the mother was sitting in the front seat.
The officer with her stopped Ramey about five feet away and instructed him to not speak with her.
Ramey attempted to walk up to the door of the ambulance and stated....
"i'm her pastor" i'm here to talk to her.
The officer said "no, you can't speak to her on scene". 
Ramey again stated he was her pastor and was there for both families.
The officer that time got agitated and said No! you can not speak to her!
He then said " I saw you speaking to the other mother" you can't talk to her you will taint our investigation.
Ramey again proceded to move toward the mother.
The officer at that point informed Ramey if he took another step he would be placed under arrest for interfering with their investigation.
That he could meet the mother at the hospital away from the crime scene.
Ramey then backed off and did not speak to the mother.
It wasn't until the officer threatened arrest that he backed away.
Had he spoke to the mother the outcome would have been much different.
The mother has been very vocal about the Police, Prosecutors, and detectives were very professional and not once questioned as to whether what happened was true.
Again i'm getting information from the mother and giving this narrative from what we know it occurred. 
Her son was given good care by the hospital staff, the doctor and rape examiner, the D.A., detecitves and the place her son went for specialized counseling outside the church.
The church seemed to do everything to silence them.
They shunned them.
Removed the mother from her ministry immediately.
Placed her child and her under church discipline for reporting.
Friends stopped talking to them.
Her cleaning business took an immediate loss as church members began to cancel services.
it's good to note she had been in business for four years at that time.
Her son who was just child was shamed and called a homosexual from the pulpit.
In one night they lost everything for her standing for the truth and not budging when they tried to silence her.
The blog who reported her sons story she did not know who they were or what has been reported here.
She in our opinion did what she thought was best.
Ken had a big platform and her son was given a bigger one at the right moment to combat the evil coming from the pulpit.
It took courage for them to loose everything and then go public.
Most abused boys/men never speak about their abuse and her son is a courageous young man.
He is a better young man in spite of what ken tried to do to him.
He is not broken but healing.
Recently he faced Ramey and according to the mother her son showed grace when he did not need to.
Nobody would have blamed him had he punched Ramey in the face.
Instead he choose peace.
That is the young man this woman has raised and the young man who Ramey and his "church" rejected!
I hope this clears up any misunderstandings and again she just wanted to make sure everything put out in public is the truth and honest.
The mother asked me to thank all of you and watchman for not forgetting her son and for standing strong.
She thinks this blog is honest and is needed.

























watchmanwakes

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Reply with quote  #20 
Followerofchrist,  Thanks to you and the boy's mother for the clarification.  It's my belief that the boy's mother did absolutely the right thing in calling the authorities and in going forward with pressing charges against the perp.  The point I tried to make is that it looks like Ramey wanted this crime and its consequences to be all dealt with "in-house."  It looks like he didn't want the police to be called, nor did he want the perp to be prosecuted.  And that certain church members and leaders would exact retribution against the mother for her actions instead of showing her love and support I find to be both horrible and puzzling.
bjw

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Reply with quote  #21 
Isn't the mother you speak of the same woman who used to post here under the name "couragehonor" or is this a different case?  Whatever the case, I think the point here is what is to blame here are the destructive policies of this cult and how it contributes to encouraging crimes like this to happen.  Some things to consider...

Even though this church is in another state, this church is part of the same cult network as GCC that goes by various names such as Grace Advance, TMAI, Masters Communications, Lordship Salvation, or whatever other names they have come up with to hide behind.  Ken Ramey was friends with my roommate while I was living at the cult and he was trained by the same people that train all the pastors for this network, thus equipping him with specific policies that must be followed as he reports upward on a pyramid-shaped structure that assures he is in compliance with these rules.  Ramey was trained the same as every other pastor that has passed through the doors of TMS, and he himself has taught classes at the cult's main campus.

The dangerous parts of these rules is that when a crime is perpetrated against you by another member, you are extremely discouraged from calling the police and are asked to defer to the restoration process instead, which is basically:

Step One:  Go to the person and let them know you caught them breaking the rule or doing something to you.  Let them know that if they choose to repent nothing will happen and you will forgive them provided they admit to what they've done and promise to not do it again.

Step Two:  You are to report the person to the church or student life office after the second offense you catch the person in, thus confronting the person with witnesses that are church elders (if in the church) or wow staff/student life exec (if at the college).  The person may be referred to a nouthetic counselor if the alleged sins are deemed to be habitual.

Step Three:  You are to report the person again to the church or student life office who will instruct all others to shun the person who is now deemed to be "out of fellowship" with God.  Members are told the person may not really be saved, never actually accepted Christ as Lord, is self-deceived, needs more counseling, etc.  The person is sent to a mentor or nouthetic counselor who will work with the person's repentance and will determine along with church officials when the shunning is to cease and if the person can be brought back into full fellowship.  A person who is stubborn and is not deemed repentant may be asked to leave the cult.

So, as you can see, substituting this for proper law enforcement of crimes such as child molestation, sexual harassment, violence, and other crimes is a dangerous situation.  These people are not qualified to treat pedophiles and rapists or anything else for that matter.  This policy is only created to keep the cult out of the press.  They care nothing about the welfare of the members.  This policy makes this cult a pedophile's dream hang-out, once they work their way up the ladder to elder or exec they can get away with whatever they want and only have to face the restoration process, which is a ruse designed to brainwash you while extracting more money for the books the counselor will make you read.

See, the restoration process only works from the top down.  Someone new cannot start the restoration process on someone further up the ladder.  Everyone has to always be mentored by someone thought to be more mature than them in terms of surrendering to the lordship of Christ.  The "less mature" or newer members can never call out an older member for something they catch them doing, and elders or execs can never be subject to this by the members or students.  Basically, you can only start the restoration process on someone lower on the pyramid than you are.  This explains the way the student on the other thread got away with the rape of the girl at the college and how she was blamed.  It is always the victim's fault, since anything bad that happens in your life is said to be because of unconfessed sin.  So, if you got raped or beat up, you must have been out of fellowship with God to deserve something like that, so you need the restoration process.  Seriously, I was put on the restoration process before for reporting people that got violent with me under this very reasoning.

Sorry for the long rant, but I just want to make it clear the mother and the son both did the right thing.  Never rely on this cult or nouthetic counseling for anything as far as justice is concerned.  It is good Ramey was not allowed to interfere, and the shaming he did to these people was deplorable, but he did exactly as he was told to by the cult.  I see the son has forgiven Ramey, and that is good as Christ commands us to forgive everyone, but I hope the mother and son have not been conned back into rejoining the cult, as that is only going to open the door for more things like this to happen.  I hope she becomes an activist and protests the atrocities committed by this organization that should have been shut down a long time ago.

followerofchrist

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Reply with quote  #22 
Hello,


Your assessment is precisely accurate.
The mother 100% has been vocal publically about what happened to her son and how ramey treated him.
The apology he gave wasn't a full apology she doesn't believe.
Again I'm giving this from the mothers side and because she asked me to clear some things up I think I can do that in this situation to.
She kept her word and told ken she would have a conversation once he acknowledged her son was abused.
She also believed at the time he had apologized.
What she told us is that now she has questions that will determine whether he is being sincere or not.
It will come out in the conversation as to what exactly ken is acknowledging.
I asked her about this and she said it doesn't matter what he thinks she wants an opportunity to have a face to face and put him into a position to answer direct questions regarding his participation.
whether she gets the truth or not she says isn't the point.
His response will determine how she proceeds on continuing to expose him.
Ken has lied about her son and until he makes right what he said about him she will then know if
The mother has no desire to return to kens church.
They left at the end of 2013 and have not returned.
Her son will not step foot into lbc and really not into another church.
The damage done to the boy was severe not just by the perp. but also ken and the men at the church.
When the mother and son were out for dinner one evening ken approached her son outside the restaurant.
He began speaking to her son and apologized to him that he had been hurt.
This is not a full admission that he did anything wrong.
The boy accepted that but told ken directly that because of what he did to him he will never step foot into a church again.
I got to give it to her son he was honest and told ken to his face exactly how his actions caused him to not want to worship in another church.
He then told Ramey that he reads his bible at home and ONLY THE KING JAMES!
He stated that no one will tell him what to read and believe.
This was an in your face statement as ken teaches out of the ESV and discourages the King James
The mother said she went back to the version with which she became a believer.
She has taught her son from the KJ and they both believe that the versions Ken teaches from are false!
Her son told ken in that statement you teach out of a false book and you wont tell me what to think.
I thought his statement was brilliant.
His mother is giving her son room to breath and make his decisions.
She has taught him her faith but now is leaving it up to God and him how he exercises his faith.
Her son is a class act.
He is honest and is resolute in how he will worship.
The mother is coming at this from a different perspective now.
Her eyes like ours are wide open.
She had a choice and this is where ken thought he would get them back.
He took away her livelihood by removing her customers from the church.
We think he thought because she was a single mom and made little money she needed them.
The mother abandoned everything for her son and stood on principle, what was right.
One of her customers while she was on a job cleaning her home asked the mother this!
Do you think your doing all of this because deep down you believe your son is really a homosexual.
The mother has it on audio.
She had a bad feeling when this woman wanted to have lunch with her so she recorded.
The mother got up said she was leaving.
The customer said no you need this job don't worry stay I will leave and she left 100 on the table.
The mother gathered her things walked out and left the money.
We know because it was my house she came to right after and she was in tears over the accusation and assault on her and her sons character.
Ken sent this woman to confront her and it backfired.
Another elder and his wife did the same thing.
They kept her for almost three hours to convince her to drop the lawsuit against the family.
she was suing for the medical damages their son caused to her child.
The wife told her that because Christians deserve hell that he son deserved to be raped.
Again she stood her ground even angering the elder when she wouldn't agree to drop the suit.
She got up and left never working for them again.
Another member confronted her and told her because of the lawsuit she couldn't have her services.
Another elder "Jacobs Properties" in Montgomery right here where I am did the exact same.
With Jacobs it was worse the mother worked with his mother taking care of their 24 + horses
They were a main source of income.
She worked for them for four years I think at this time.
She also cleaned their business office.
She was close to the elders mother and seen them pretty much three to four times a week helping care for , feed, and clean the horse stalls.
The family shows horses they were even in western magazine.
Their horses range from 5,000 to way up into the twenty thousands.
They deal in large ranch real estate , cows, horses, and more.
The mother was the only one who cared for their horses as they went out of town weekly for horse shows.
The last time the mother took care of them was when they went to hawaii they paid her $1600 for over two weeks of them being gone.
When they returned the mother had left the church and shortly afterwards they let her go.
They let her go through a text!
Years of working and being in their lives and she was discarded, we were horrified to find this out.
There is nothing godly about what they did.
The parents didn't attend lbc but their son Tyler is an elder there.
The mother walked away from it all.
If she had apologized , got back in their good graces , didn't pursue justice for her son then.....
Ken Ramey would not have been on watchmans radar or the other blogs.
The mother found a way to expose him and watchman did a great job in how he presented the facts.
I agree with the mother his blog is honest and accurate.
The mother had she got with the program would be still at lbc
her son damaged as a result.
All for what? Money and fake friendships a fake christian family.
She choose to walk away from all of it and stand on conviction what was right.
It takes courage to step out on faith.
There are those here on this forum who are just like her standing for what is right.
What I know now is she is not backing down.
She doesn't trust ramey or anyone from lbc.
However she is a nice person and wouldn't deny forgiveness if its truly being sought.
She told me the other day
Being wise as a serpent but innocent as a dove.
Her words say it all the scripture says it.
Some events have occured for which I will alert watchmen in an email.


















































bjw

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Reply with quote  #23 
followerofchrist,

Thank you for responding to my post.  I hope I didn't come across as being too harsh, I didn't realize how harsh my post sounded until I went back and read it.  I am glad to hear that they are doing so well and that her son is still embracing his faith apart from lordship salvation and is sticking with the KJV.  You gave an excellent post here about the behavior of Ramey and the other members, and I think it will go a long way to show others the type of attrocities that go on in this organization.  This post may save others a lot of heartbreak if they read it before thinking about joining the cult, and the more people post on sites like this about their experiences adds to the material that people can find when searching the internet to try to make an informed decision about organizations they join.  

Also something to note is the level of victim shaming that they do.  They are taught that anything bad that happens to you is caused by unconfessed sin, so they always shift the blame.  They feel their church is guided by Christ and thus can do no wrong, any problems must have been caused by you.  Ramey's apology is exactly the type of apologies I used to get out of these people, it is more of a "I'm sorry you were offended" rather than "I admit what I did and I am sorry I did it and promise to never do it again because I was wrong."  

For the benefit of those who may have stumbled onto this site and are still learning about this, I highly recommend reading followerofchrist's posts and comparing them to MacArthur's three lists that were posted earlier in this thread that tell how to be saved under lordship salvation.  This is exactly consistent with what is there.  Under List 3 lordship salvation must be defended and guarded, and the member is obligated to do this or they may not really be saved.  Therefore, this explains why Ramey and the others are trying to keep the church out of court and away from the press or the police.  Under list 2 it says "separation from the world," which they use to say you should not rely on the worldly court systems or police when dealing with fellow members and only use the restoration process.  They feel to do otherwise means you are not saved, as it violates this list.  

The behavior of the members confronting her, accusing her son of being a homosexual, and trying to keep the case out of court are following step two of the restoration process where members and elders are sent to confront the person.  The description of the church discipline/restoration process section of the GCC website uses the phrase "they are to pursue the person aggressively" in instructing how to apply this process.  

I am glad you gave us an update on how they are doing and this sounds like a very brave young man, and I hope his relationship with Christ continues to grow.  I had both joy for how he is rebounding from what happened to him and sadness when I saw how they were being treated.  I am glad that she is still speaking out and that the son is doing better, please let couragehonor know that I am very happy for them and they will continue to be in my prayers.  You did the right thing by posting this here as I am sure the Lord will use it to warn others of the dangers of this organization.
followerofchrist

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Reply with quote  #24 
Thank you bjw she will read your post as I direct her here.
You were not harsh at all.
I appreciate your honesty and testimony.
What you say is 100% correct.
This is exactly what was done to many who have been driven away from lbc.
This website is making it difficult for ramey to hide from the truth.
I will have to share later as I did with watchman what another woman did to confront an elder at lbc.
She had him running for the door.
She showed him the photos on this website of the occult signs and asked why our pastor was cursing the church members.
I about fell out of my chair laughing because I could see the stammering in my head.
These men are not used to being confronted point blank like that.
Anyways it was definitely something I wish I had been there to see his face and response.
She nailed him and he couldn't handle it.
ramey is being exposed and the mother will not stop until her son gets a public apology for their part in his abuse after the fact.





watchmanwakes

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Reply with quote  #25 
Though I don't know much about the occult world, I think those signs from Ramey were more than just "cursing" his congregation, but were actually casting a spell on them.  
watchmanwakes

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Reply with quote  #26 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bjw
Isn't the mother you speak of the same woman who used to post here under the name "couragehonor" or is this a different case? 


Yes, she used to make comments here as "couragehonor."  Her son's abuse was then exposed by a website called The Wartburg Watch.  I have exposed The Wartburg Watch for their heretical teaching that Jesus Christ is Michael, the Archangel.  The pastor of and inspiration for The Wartburg Watch is Wade Burleson.  The following link goes to one of the articles he's written titled, "Michael is the name for the Son of God Himself, Our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ." 
http://www.wadeburleson.org/2011/08/michael-is-name-for-son-of-god-himself.html
bjw

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Reply with quote  #27 
What bothered me the most about the way Wartburg Watch "exposed" this was that they avoided many of the important issues and tried to make this seem like an isolated incident, while at the same time saying insulting things about posters here on this board, calling us "conspiracy theorists" and saying this site is nothing but another "screed on freemasonry."  It then tried to make light of the occult connections and took the fact that MacArthur is a mason and attempted to claim masonry is just a social club with a secret handshake, which masons themselves would find insulting and is easily disproved by the articles that were on this site and watchpray's sites at the time.  Though like I said they ignored all the issues.  Had they done the right thing, they would have worked with this site in exposing this cult and getting the issues out, but instead the way they deleted posts and snuffed out information while insulting those that were giving honest information, it made them seem suspiciously like either controlled opposition or someone with some other agenda.  Yes, they did publish what happened but they could have done much more by publishing why this was able to happen and why the conditions that abound in this cult lead to things like this.  I got the impression they more saw this as an isolated incident and that lordship salvation is just another variation of Christianity, which we know it isn't.

As for their belief of Christ being Michael the Archangel, the Book of Jude makes it obvious that Michael is subservient to Christ, not one and the same.  When Michael fights with Satan over the body of Moses, he says "The Lord rebuke you."  This shows they cannot be one and the same.  The people he quotes in the article are heretics.

Couragehonor's case should have been exposed on both sites, which it was, and I'm glad she was able to get help.  However, it needs to be made clear these things have happened more than once in this cult, it is far from isolated.  The girl that was raped by a seminary student is a good example.  Manipulating the law has happened way more than once as well, as can be seen in mine and benyahmin's testimonies out of the cult, as well as others who have had GCC make threats against them as can be seen with other posters on here.  This cult has a habit of playing loose with the law, and that can be seen in way more than just this case, not to trivialize what happened to couragehonor and her son.  I am glad it was exposed, but think about how many are going on as we speak that are not being exposed or people have been afraid  to speak out.  I myself recently turned down a chance to do a podcast about my story because of this fear factor.  I can imagine it is the same with others.  This young man has courage and I hope more victims of this cult speak out in the future and stand up to them the way he has.  His mom had the courage to go to two websites about the matter.  The websites need to have the courage to tell the whole story, and TWW had the chance to do that here but only did half the job in my opinion.  Once couragehonor's story was told (and she got the help she needed) they should have told the rest of the story.

watchmanwakes

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Reply with quote  #28 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bjw
What bothered me the most about the way Wartburg Watch "exposed" this was that they avoided many of the important issues and tried to make this seem like an isolated incident, while at the same time saying insulting things about posters here on this board, calling us "conspiracy theorists" and saying this site is nothing but another "screed on freemasonry."  It then tried to make light of the occult connections and took the fact that MacArthur is a mason and attempted to claim masonry is just a social club with a secret handshake, which masons themselves would find insulting and is easily disproved by the articles that were on this site and watchpray's sites at the time.  Though like I said they ignored all the issues.  Had they done the right thing, they would have worked with this site in exposing this cult and getting the issues out, but instead the way they deleted posts and snuffed out information while insulting those that were giving honest information, it made them seem suspiciously like either controlled opposition or someone with some other agenda.  Yes, they did publish what happened but they could have done much more by publishing why this was able to happen and why the conditions that abound in this cult lead to things like this.  I got the impression they more saw this as an isolated incident and that lordship salvation is just another variation of Christianity, which we know it isn't.


BJW,  Thanks for this.  I had forgotten the many insults given by The Wartburg Watch to the posters on this forum...and especially to those who put forth the evidence that John Macarthur was a Freemason.  Now I do recall that The Wartburg Watch is run by two women-the main woman being Dee Parsons.  I do recall her stating that she was a Rainbow Girl and that her father was a 32nd degree Freemason and that it was a ridiculous notion to believe that Masons could have any political power or that they could conspire and that they are just a social club as you say.  And of greater interest, I found out that The Wartburg Watch's inspiration and pastor, Wade Burleson, descends from an ancestry that is filled with very influential Masons...a fact that is never mentioned by Wade Burleson in any of his extensive writings though he claims to be a historian. 

Without doubt, the agenda of The Wartburg Watch is not to publish the truth.  Their true agenda, as I found, is to bring women and homosexuals into church leadership.
watchmanwakes

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Reply with quote  #29 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bjw

As for their belief of Christ being Michael the Archangel, the Book of Jude makes it obvious that Michael is subservient to Christ, not one and the same.  When Michael fights with Satan over the body of Moses, he says "The Lord rebuke you."  This shows they cannot be one and the same.  The people he quotes in the article are heretics.


Great points!  And the title of Wade Burleson's article is, "Michael Is a Name for the Son of God Himself, Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."  As you prove, the Son of God can't be our Lord and Michael.  He couldn't be the creator and the creation.  As many Christians know, the Jehovah's Witnesses also teach that Jesus Christ is Michael, the Archangel.  Is it possible Wade Burleson is a JW?  I think it's more likely that this teaching comes from Freemasonry and that's why it's embraced by The Wartburg Watch's pastor.
watchmanwakes

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Reply with quote  #30 

I think this commentary by FB Hole regarding Matthew 15 also explains how Macarthur's traditions like his "Restoration Process" have only served to nullify God's Word and His commands (like the command to love one another):

"The Lord's reply to these men emphasizes the difference between "the commandment of God," and "your tradition" (v. 3). These traditions of the elders were explanations, amplifications and inferences drawn from the law by venerated teachers of old time. They dominated the minds of the Pharisees and quite beclouded the law of God; so much so that they transgressed the law to keep their tradition. The Lord charged them with this, and gave an illustration of it as regards the fifth commandment. Their tradition as regards gifts, professedly devoted to God, completely nullified that commandment. The "pious" and "orthodox" Jew of today has his mind filled with the Talmud, which is built up from these traditions, and it is like a veil, shrouding from his mind the true word of God.

"Let us take care lest we fall into a similar snare. We may thankfully avail ourselves of the teachings of God's servants, but using them rightly we shall be led back to the fountain-head, even Scripture itself. It would not be difficult to turn the teachings of the best of God's servants into a kind of Talmud.   Then we should have them as a sort of smoke screen, hiding from us the pure Word of God, just as the Talmud blinds the Jewish mind to the real force of the Old Testament."
http://www.stempublishing.com/authors/hole/NT/MATTHEW.html#a14

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