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MyrtleforBriar

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I read some time ago that John MacArthur was a student of R.B. Thieme and in particular learned his false theology about the blood of Jesus from this particular 'teacher'.

I have read a fair bit of Thieme's ridiculous writings as a close family member of mine was involved in his teachings when I was a child.  They tried to force me to get involved listening to his teaching and reading his booklets, but I had a lot of trouble even understanding them.  He is typical as cult leaders go, making up his own theology, renaming biblical terms like repentance to mean 'rebounding' and adding a little here and taking away much there to produce complete twaddle.  Those I knew who listened to and adhered to Thieme's strange doctrines changed their lives accordingly.  One refused to continue in their job as a social worker because Thieme denounced dependance upon the State.  Another became a part-time soldier because Thieme suggested every able bodied male should have military training.  His control of them was complete. 

I have listened to his teaching on an audio tape and he practically had a heart attack because he noticed a girl in the front row of his church was chewing gum.  He verbally attacked her in front of the whole church simply for what he believed was a lack of respect for his bad self.  A real sweetheart!

When I heard that MacArthur had also studied under Thieme I was shocked.  But only because I had no idea Thieme had that much influence.  He has apparently influenced other well known 'teachers' but I can't remember names at the present.

Do you know anything more on this subject, or can anyone else add to this?  I am concerned only because Thieme is as destructive a cult leader as any I have ever known, and if MacArthur is a cult leader it will be because he has learned a great deal from men like this.  It wouldn't surprise me if Thieme was also a freemason.
watchmanwakes

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Excerpted from Did the Blood of Jesus Run Into the Ground and Rot? :

I. Dr. MacArthur teaches things about the Blood of Christ which are not revealed in the Bible.

I know where Dr. MacArthur learned his false doctrines regarding the Blood of Jesus. Back in the fall of 1961 a friend and I went to hear Colonel R. B. Thieme, Jr. Thieme was teaching on the Blood of Christ. My friend and I sat four rows behind John MacArthur. MacArthur took notes throughout Thieme's lecture. Here is what Colonel Thieme taught John MacArthur about the Blood of Christ that night:

Thieme denied that the Blood of Christ at Calvary is to be taken literally with regard to our salvation. 

Thieme denied that Christ literally presented His Blood to the Father in Heaven (cf.  The False Teaching of R. B. Thieme, Jr. by Rev. Robert G. Walter).

The teachings of Colonel Thieme can be studied by obtaining his book The Blood of Christ (R. B. Thieme, Jr., Houston, Texas: Berachah Publications, 1974). I am an eyewitness to the fact that John MacArthur learned these doctrines from Colonel Thieme back in 1961. Now MacArthur has spread these false teachings throughout the churches everywhere, and these twisted doctrines are now enshrined in The MacArthur Study Bible. Today many so-called fundamentalists have learned Thieme's putrid doctrines from MacArthur. This has done great harm to the cause of Christ and gospel preaching in general.  I believe that it is part of the end-time apostasy.

Not long ago I had lunch with a Baptist pastor who graduated from Dr. MacArthur's seminary. I told this young pastor that I believed the Blood of Jesus was translated into Heaven. The pastor looked at me out of the corner of his eye and said,

You don't think an angel came down with a golden cup and scooped up the Blood and took it to Heaven, do you? That's a medieval Catholic teaching, that the Blood of Christ was carried to Heaven in a golden cup.

Dr. MacArthur has said that so often that young pastors who attend his college and seminary come out parroting it, "You don't think an angel took Christ's Blood to Heaven in a golden cup, do you? That's a medieval Catholic teaching."

I didn't answer the pastor. I didn't want to have an argument at lunch. But I went home and thought about it. It was only after I got home that I remembered where MacArthur got that question, which the pastor learned from him. MacArthur got that question from Colonel R. B. Thieme! I remember hearing Thieme ask in a sarcastic voice, "You don't think an angel came and took Christ's Blood to Heaven in a golden cup, do you? That's a medieval Catholic teaching." Those were the exact words of Thieme, although I'm sure that the young pastor is unaware of their true source. Now MacArthur and his followers repeat these same words from Colonel Thieme.

watchmanwakes

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John Macarthur and R B Thieme aren't the only ones teaching this aberrant doctrine regarding Christ's blood.  This doctrine is also being taught by Wade Burleson, the pastor of the "watchman" blog, Wartburg Watch.  This following was taken from Burleson's Istoria Blog:

"Without the shedding of blood (loss of life), there is no forgiveness of sins" (Heb. 9:22).

"In the Old Covenant, the blood of the sacrificial animals played a prominent role in Jewish worship. From the priest dipping his fingers into the blood and sprinkling it on the ground and the altar, to the various instructions for the use of the blood according to the kind of sacrifice being offered, blood was a predominate theme. However, there was no magic in the blood of the sacrificial animals, and there is no magic in the blood of Jesus Christ. The blood in both represented their lives and the blood shed by both represented their deaths.

"When Christians sing songs like Nothing But the Blood, Are You Washed in the Blood? Oh, the Blood of Jesus, and There Is Power In the Blood, the thought processes of the worshipper should revolve around the death of Jesus Christ, not the red blood cells of Jesus Christ. The shedding of Christ's blood is simply a synonym for His death. [John Macarthur calls the blood a "metonym" for his death.] God gave His Son to die. It is not the actual blood of Jesus that saves us, it is the death of Jesus that saves us (I Corinthians 15:3)...

"The next time you sing about the blood, reflect on what it is that you are actually singing.  The emphasis in Scripture is not on the red corpuscles in the body of Jesus as if they  possess some magical powers...

"The blood of Jesus Christ is His death..."

Wade Burleson's teaching and denial of Christ's blood is exactly the same as John Macarthur's?  Are they both Masons? 




MyrtleforBriar

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Reply with quote  #4 
I think it very interesting that what they speak of is what is in their hearts.  These men mention the 'magic' of the blood which in itself speaks of occult practices.  Satanic rituals also involve the shedding of blood to give the worshipper power.

Why speak of 'magic' in the blood when nobody else is talking about magic. Christians for centuries have believed in the power of the blood, its in scripture for heaven's sake.  However the blood got to heaven is immaterial, if it was an angel then it would be because God sent an angel to do this.  Angels are continually being sent by God to do His will on the earth, this is hardly magic, this is the will of the Father.

Out of the heart of a man the mouth speaks.

I myself have only recently understood the power of the blood.  To me, this doctrine (denying the power of the blood) is akin to denying that Jesus Christ came in the flesh.  If the blood is the life of the body and the blood has no power, or 'magic' as they insist, then the body has no power either.  This is very subtle manipulation of the word of God, but it is just as abhominable.  I feel sick just thinking about what they are trying to do, whether they are aware of it or not, they are going to have to repent of this at some point or another.

God have mercy on them.
bjw

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When you study the doctrines the reason for this heresy becomes obvious, it is a total works system where you earn your way to heaven, and not through the blood of Christ the way most of Christianity believes.
watchmanwakes

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Reply with quote  #6 
I believe it's possible that Jesus Christ went to Heaven to sprinkle his blood after his resurrection.  In John 20:17, Jesus is talking to Mary: "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."

Yet after this in verse 27, Jesus said to Thomas: "Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing."

Why could Thomas touch Jesus, but Mary couldn't?  It seems clear that Jesus ascended to Heaven between the time he spoke to Mary and the time he spoke with Thomas.  Did he sprinkle his blood when he went up there?  

Perhaps BJW is right.  Righteousness can't be imputed by Grace through faith in the blood of Christ, it must be merited through works (Lordship Salvation).  John Macarthur wants Christians believing they are slaves and not blood bought children and brides. 




kr2726

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Reply with quote  #7 

I'm thankful for the clarification concerning Thieme's teachings--I wondered about the significance of JM having studied under him.  The more I find out about Johnny Mac's blasphemous teachings, the more shocked I am, and that so many other Christians whom I once admired KNOW of his heretical beliefs, yet have not turned away from him as well.

I was encouraged to read though that several radio stations had dropped him--how many total, I wonder?  Thanks for all of the info on this site.  I'm still concerned about Grace church in Greeley, CO, having hired one of "Johnny Mac's Minions," as I call his followers who infiltrate churches, such as Travis Allen.

watchmanwakes

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BTW, I don't know any Macarthur-ite churches that have the name of Christ or Christian?  It's usually a "Grace" church or a "Bible" church or a "Community" church, but never a "Christian" church.  I just checked all the Grace Advance Macarthur-ite churches and not one has the name of Christ or Christian. 
bjw

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Quote:
Originally Posted by watchmanwakes
BTW, I don't know any Macarthur-ite churches that have the name of Christ or Christian?  It's usually a "Grace" church or a "Bible" church or a "Community" church, but never a "Christian" church.  I just checked all the Grace Advance Macarthur-ite churches and not one has the name of Christ or Christian. 
Come to think of it, I think that's true of all the churches they run in the Santa Clarita area as well.  The Wow Handbook has a listing of churches wow staff are allowed to recommend to those they counsel, and all are somehow affiliated with college or seminary staff, some are community, ev free, Baptist, Bible, but I don't remember seeing Christian or Christ.
kr2726

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Reply with quote  #10 
I wondered what the men who participated in the Strange Fire conference thought of JMac's blasphemous views on the blood of Christ and taking the Mark, and part of my question was answered when I looked up Steve Lawson. He's written a book titled, "Blood Work," in which he parrots John's views that Jesus "had normal human blood," and says when the Bible talks about the blood of Christ it's a metaphor of His death.  

If God had meant "death", which I believe is "muth" (?), the writers would not have written the Greek word for blood, which I believe is "haima" (?).

John MacArthur, who despises the things of the Holy Spirit I now realize, also says when the Bible talks about raising hands to heaven in prayer or worship, that it's a metaphor of a "holy life." Tell that to Solomon in 1 Kings, who raised his hands to heaven as he prayed to the Lord.  Scripture commands us to raise our hearts AND hands to heaven as well.
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