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watchmanwakes

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Students seen following their "master" at John Macarthur's The Masters College's Hotchkiss Hall Dormitory.

Siona Savini--5 men with black masks.jpg 



Hotchkiss Hall  evil masked man with trophy.jpg  



Cana baldridge--masks men-1.jpg 


canon baldridge--5 men in black gym.jpg 


Canon Baldridge--many in black paint.jpg 

watchmanwakes

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Here are the students from The Masters College's Ralph S Slight Hall Dormitory.  Don't see many bibles in hand.  This pic is from their FB page.

  Ralph S Slight Hall-best.jpg

watchmanwakes

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Christians or Zombies?  Which will Hotchkiss Hall produce?

Hotchkiss hall--Plaugue zombies.jpg 


hotchkiss Hall zombies--explanation game.jpg 
 

bjw

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I used to hate these dorm rivalry games they played.  I remember they had a gotcha dart gun game where you shoot another player to eliminate them.  The problem was they would shoot at people even when they weren't playing, and it was bothersome.  They really like to do these "bonding" games and I think it plays a big part in the mind control.  They always keep you busy and even during recreation they have you doing debasing games like this.  This not only looks occultic, but it shows they lack maturity.  Hardly a place to get an education.
watchmanwakes

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"I am a face in a sea of black.  I do not stand alone.  I am not an individual.  I am a member of a family.  A tradition.  A legacy.  This is Hotchkiss." 

This certainly is mind control because we are all to stand alone for Jesus Christ in this dark world and we are all individuals.  There will be no group grade on Judgment Day.

Were they putting on masks and using face paint like this when you were there?   
revcoltom

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Watchman    I know so many people who think John Macarthur is the LAST MAN standing with Biblical Faithfulness .I have shown them some of this stuff and it makes them angry. Not at the Masters gang for allowing / promoting it but at me for saying anything. I have never seen the blind loyalty for a preacher that this guy generates. That alone is not healthy These games are dark . The imagery is in some ways even worse than the camp games but at least this is college age guys. It is encouraging immaturity and worldly (zombies are the Hollywood thing of late) and it is encouraging having "fun" with something demonic ( Zombies are part of Voodoo and its dark teachings).
When my brother was in Bible College and most of my friends who are in ministry...you had codes of conduct and dress codes.You had standards of  Christian conduct and ethics and representing the institution at all time  These kids would all be expelled . BTW- Where is Macarthur in the face paint? He likes to pose with these young followers.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by revcoltom
I have never seen the blind loyalty for a preacher that this guy generates.


I think it was Mark Twain who said, "Give a man a reputation as an early riser and he can sleep till noon."  The blind loyalty Macarthur generates among his followers is truly baffling.  "He's a great bible scholar."  The man has denied the blood of Jesus Christ for 40 years!   He still teaches that Jesus Christ only "assumed the role of a son" at his incarnation.  And it's the official position of Grace Community Church that it's OK to take the Mark of the Beast.  Any other preacher teaches these things and the congregation would be running for the exits.  There must be demonic strongholds holding Macarthur's congregation captive.  And from these pics, it's entirely believable.  Which one is Macarthur?  Maybe the one in the top pic who looks like Darth Vader.   
formerlbcmember

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Canon Baldrige is a Lakeside bible church member along with his parents. Ken Ramey pushes for parents to send their children to The Masters Seminary. The pushing is made obvious to outsider's but as an insider these kids are pointed in the direction of TMS and TMC.

Also it is interesting to note that pastor ken is going through a spiritual depression right now. He spoke this past Sunday at his church that he and his wife kelli are not having fun in the ministry and that he has been slandered online. It's so bad that he needed another vacation to stay at home and go to Tennessee to spend time with one of his mentors.
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Sorry I'm not trying to intrude here I saw that name and his posts. I thought you would be interested to know that he is a member of pastor kens church LBC.
watchmanwakes

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You aren't intruding at all.  Your comments are very much appreciated.  Though I did know that Ken Ramey encouraged the LBC kids to attend TMC, I didn't know Canon Baldridge was an LBC member.  I wonder if Canon's parents approve of the TMC activities depicted here.

Ken Ramey needs a vacation?  Didn't he recently go on a vacation to a luxury resort in Singapore? and to Russia? 

Ramey isn't having "fun" and believes he's being slandered online?  I would imagine that it isn't much fun when one's dark deeds have been publicly exposed.  I can't speak for other sites, but Ramey is more than welcome to come on this forum anytime to make comments or corrections if he believes he's been slandered here.  The JM Cult Watch Forum has no agenda but for the truth.   

Ramey is going through a spiritual depression?  Maybe this is because he's been invoking demonic spirits.  Why would a Christian pastor be flashing these satanic/masonic hand signals from his pulpit? 

Ramey--sermon--triangle--best-4.jpg   


Ramey sermon--triangle--togther as 1--12-7.jpg 

formerlbcmember

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I wondered that myself. It takes effort to form those symbols. One would have to ask why he does them and what do they mean? It seems like pastor ken go's on many vacations and trips. The Baldriges are part of the main click the inner circle there at lakeside and i doubt ken would comment because he would then have to answer tough questions from your readers. Maybe he's depressed because he's under heavy conviction. He stated that he and his wife kelli are not enjoying the ministry right now. He mentions anti depression drugs and seems to indicate or persuade people not to take them. That was what I got from that sermon. This is dangerous as anti depressants do help balance people chemically. Also if anyone here who knew ken back in the day when he first started in the ministry i would like to know who his mentors were. One in particular was a youth pastor and ken followed him to a church where this man was a youth pastor. A former member pointed me to a sermon of his and this mentor abused a 16-17 year old girl in his youth group and it all came out which pastor ken states that he stood by the youth pastors side. The girl was troubled and went into counseling at a Christian College where she told what happened. The youth pastor was contacted by the u.s. Marshalls and he fled to another state in another ministry at a different church. He had a wife and children. Later the girl died in a car wreck while going back to college. Pastor ken slandered her by making her out to be very loose with men and he blamed her for the abuse. He then stated very clearly that "maybe God just sometimes takes people like her out! I'm certain her parents would be outraged if they heard a pastor using the pulpit to slander their dead child who was a victim of kens mentor. It would be good to find out who this man is.
watchmanwakes

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These hand gestures made by Pastor Ken Ramey are not accidental.  I copied these hand signals from a couple of sermons that were posted online and these aren't the only Masonic hand signals I've seen him make.  Also, I noticed these hand signals were made within a "Masonic" context.  For example, in one sermon called "The Master's Plan for the Church" (and who is this master?  A Master Mason?) he mentions Christopher Wren, who many believe was a Mason and how he went to St Paul's "incognito" (which is how Masons must behave).  Then he talked about "Architects" drawing up a master plan.  Masonry has the Great Architect and many architect degrees.  I saw another talk where he flashed satanic symbols while talking about Solomon, who the Masons revere.  Ramey said, "Solomon uses the word fool 3 times" and then he flashed the 666 hand signal to the congregation.  Ramey is also wearing the blue and gold Masonic tie in these talks.  So there is evidence that Pastor Ken Ramey is a Mason.  His main mentor is John Macarthur.  There is much evidence Macarthur is a Mason (see John Macarthur: Freemason). 

The Blakeys have been very close to Ramey and LBC and the Masonic symbols at their churches have also been exposed on this forum.  (See Church Pastored by Macarthurites uses 3 Pyramid Symbol)

I don't know who Ramey's mentor is that you are referring to, but perhaps someone else may comment.   

Seen below: Ramey is making the 666 hand signal just 4 seconds before making the pyramid signal. 

Ramey sermon--666.jpg

watchmanwakes

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Quote:
Originally Posted by formerlbcmember
One in particular was a youth pastor and ken followed him to a church where this man was a youth pastor. A former member pointed me to a sermon of his and this mentor abused a 16-17 year old girl in his youth group and it all came out which pastor ken states that he stood by the youth pastors side. The girl was troubled and went into counseling at a Christian College where she told what happened. The youth pastor was contacted by the u.s. Marshalls and he fled to another state in another ministry at a different church. He had a wife and children. Later the girl died in a car wreck while going back to college. Pastor ken slandered her by making her out to be very loose with men and he blamed her for the abuse. He then stated very clearly that "maybe God just sometimes takes people like her out! I'm certain her parents would be outraged if they heard a pastor using the pulpit to slander their dead child who was a victim of kens mentor. It would be good to find out who this man is.


This account is consistent with what we have heard before on this forum from a former member of LBC whose child (young boy) was raped by another LBC member.  The victim's mother gave account on this forum that Ken Ramey stood by and supported the rapist and his parents while slandering the young victim by stating that the rape was actually consensual (the rapist pled guilty to this assault in court).  Because his mother took a very courageous stand for the truth against Ramey and the LBC elders, certain LBC church members stopped employing her for cleaning jobs in retaliation.     
formerlbcmember

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The Blakey's something that you might be interested to know. Billy Blakey replaced Adam Tyson the same year the boy was sexually abused by a member of LBC. In fact when I saw the documents posted online billy came the next month and Adam high tailed it out of there. Here's what I know of Billy Blakey to one member he came across as having an unsettling presence. Ken was forced to anounce billy leaving lbc after a year and a half because some conflict seemed to be brewing. Another member stated to me that when asked about where billy was ken said, " Don’t worry we finally got rid of that guy". I have no idea what happened but that was a pretty strong statement for him to make and say it out loud.
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I just sent an email to the entire congregation at LBC and man the attacks from a couple people are ridiculous. My emails were simply asking questions and posting pictures that display ungodly symbols and attire. I questioned whether Pastor Ramey is a freemason based on just this video

[image]
 
(Part 1 of 4) The first section of this four-part video introduces the Grand Lodge of Texas and its structure. It introduces some key concepts of Masonry and ...
He explains very clearly what it necessary to become a freemason and the main thing is you must believe in a Supreme Being (Allah, Budah, Jesus Christ, and so forth) you can not be a mason if you do not believe in any supreme being!!! He say's it and if in fact Ken Ramey and men in the church are mason's then they are attached to an ungodly organization who do good works however they mean nothing when you look at what is required to be part of their fraternity. If you look at their rituals, their symbols, the fact that they meet in secret(the bible is very clear about not meeting secretly ) it is all tied to the occult and if your pastor is in fact part of this organization then it is between you and God as to whether you stay or have a sit down with him. Just because these men appear to be nice and do nice things does not make them godly. Lucifer himself appears as an angel of light and is very crafty and deceptive. Mason's ultimately worship Lucifer (it's Luciferian worship) They tell these men this once they reach the 30 degrees of masonry.  If you fail to do the research on the background of this organization then you will see consequences at some point in your lifetime being tied to men who get deeper into it. Now, the photos below are to show that something is going on and unfortunately your children are being sucked into it right along with you and they have no choice but you do!

I was called a tool of satan, that my smell is of smoke from the pit of hell, a coward , a lier, that i have a beef with ken, that I don't have the guts to meet with anyone. Would any of you meet with people who called you names without even reading something you sent?
formerlbcmember

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I mean lets just cut to the chase this is straight from the horses mouth!

[image]
 
(Part 1 of 4) The first section of this four-part video introduces the Grand Lodge of Texas and its structure. It introduces some key concepts of Masonry and ...
He explains very clearly what it necessary to become a freemason and the main thing is you must believe in a Supreme Being (Allah, Budah, Jesus Christ, and so forth) you can not be a mason if you do not believe in any supreme being!!! Any discerning christian would not associate with any organization that states this as a requirement.
watchmanwakes

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It was good to alert the LBC congregation that there is evidence Ken Ramey is a Freemason.  As you say, one can't be a Christian and a Mason.  One can't drink from the cup of the Lord and the cup of devils.  It doesn't surprise me, however, that the LBC congregation wouldn't look at the evidence you presented and it's a fool who answers a matter before he hears it. 

Freemasonry is a secret society and so it's difficult to prove one is a Mason.  Nevertheless, it's known that the most prominent Christian in the 20th century, Billy Graham, is a Mason.  Nearly all churches today are being conformed to an organizational model developed by Peter Drucker.  Drucker's father, Adolfe, was the Grandmaster of the Grand Masonic Lodge of Austria. (L)

We have shown that Ken Ramey is a product of John Macarthur's cult.  Recently, the Grand Masonic Lodge of Canada quoted John Macarthur in a private communique sent to its grandmasters.  The communique has Macarthur stating the Masonic axiom: "It's not what you are that's important, the issue is what you are willing to become." 

John Macarthur's name is John Fullerton Macarthur.  He's named after his great grandfather, Thomas Fullerton.  Thomas Fullerton was the Grand Master of the Grand Masonic Lodge of Canada (PEI). (L)  

Given the very strong evidence John Macarthur is a Freemason, it's reasonable to assume that many (if not all) of his ministers are also Freemasons.  And there is evidence (at least with these hand signals) that Ken Ramey is a Mason.    

We need to pray that the LBC congregation be given eyes to see and ears to hear.  I applaud your courage in standing for the truth. 
formerlbcmember

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Thank you for that. So far I have received some positive feedback from lbc members and some angry emails from disgruntled members who say they didn't read my emails which I find very hard to believe given their statements to me in regards to the email. It's interesting when I'm called the tool of Satan or smelling of smoke as a result of taking a stand and giving them the truth. If they choose to live blindly well they can never say God didn't warn them.
watchmanwakes

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Very few Christians are aware that there is a Masonic degree called "Christian Master."  This degree is also called the "Presbyters Degree."   Allow me to quote below from a section of the most excellent report written by Watch Unto Prayer ministry called John Macarthur: Freemason

The Presbyter’s or Master Mason’s Degree was earned by Thomas Fraser Fullerton, the great grandfather of John Fullerton MacArthur. Is John MacArthur also a “Christian Master Mason”?  He claims that the legacy of his Masonic ancestors is the “
explosion of spiritual fruit and harvest” in his own ministry. Is “Christian Master Mason” therefore the esoteric meaning of The Master’s College, The Master’s Seminary and The Master’s Academy International? 

The “Christian Master” Masonic degree certainly explains the explosion of Master Masons in leadership positions of the Church today, just as Alice Bailey predicted a century ago:

“Very definitely may the assurance be given here that, prior to the coming of the Christ, adjustments will be made so that at the head of all great organizations will be found either a Master, or an initiate who has taken the third initiation. At the head of certain of the great occult groups, of the Freemasons of the world, and of the various great divisions of the church, and resident in many of the great nations will be found initiates or Masters.” (Initiation: Human & Solar, p. 62)

“The Christian church in its many branches can serve as a St. John the Baptist, as a voice crying in the wilderness, and as a nucleus through which world illumination may be accomplished... Its work is intended to be the holding of a broad platform. The church must show a wide tolerance, and teach no revolutionary doctrines or cling to any reactionary ideas. The church as a teaching factor should take the great basic doctrines and (shattering the old forms in which they are expressed and held) show their true and inner spiritual significance.The prime work of the church is to teach, and teach ceaselessly, preserving the outer appearance in order to reach the many who are accustomed to church usages. Teachers must be trained; Bible knowledge must be spread; the sacraments must be mystically interpreted, and the power of the church to heal must be demonstrated.

 

“The three main channels through which the preparation for the new age is going on might be regarded as the Church, the Masonic Fraternity and the educational field. All of them are as yet in relatively static condition, and all are as yet failing to meet the need and to respond to the inner pressure. But in all of these three movements, disciples of the Great Ones are to be found and they are steadily gathering momentum and will before long enter upon their designated task.” (Religious Organizations in the New Age,” Externalisation of the Hierarchy)

 

formerlbcmember

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Ken Ramey's sermon from this previous Sunday 10/16/2016  . It is apparent by Pastor's statements and the topic of this sermon " It is not well with my soul" that he is under either heavy conviction or God's judgment, I do not know. All I can say is Pastor Ramey is not suffering persecution in the name of Christ I believe he has wronged many and his sins are being revealed. It is what I believe i'm not saying its true as I am not in any position to judge the man's heart however I along with the others feel it necessary to expose his lies.

First let me say that I do believe Ken is a freemason as the blogger her has pointed out. I believe him 100% after going through some previous sermons.

Second I found it interesting that the mason's lodge in Montgomery Texas meet on the third tuesday of each month (hmmm the number 3) and it appears they had another one within the same week on that monday (again this is very interesting). Could it be that this blog and others are exposing masons at Lakeside Bible Church in Montgomery, TX? You decide or better yet start researching yourself don't just take our word for it!

Third huh, no pun intended lol. you know the number 3 right? ok anyways here is a transcription of kens sermon just a tid bit I can barely stomach listening to this guy but it's necessary and I have not got through the entire sermon yet.

  at 21:48 mark in his sermon ken says he is falsely accused and maliciously slandered and in an ancient context you can say these enemies were trolling the psalmist, ken says.

    It’s a term I recently learned trolling it’s kind of a fishing analogy when it comes to the internet when you post something online which is deliberately offensive or provocative with the aim of upsetting someone or eliciting an angry response and that’s essentially what these enemies were doing to him they were trolling him they were taunting him and trying to get him to respond in an angry way and he allowed himself to be given over to mourning. He wasn’t just listening to himself he was listening to his enemies and that is why he was so unhappy because he wasn’t talking to himself he wasn’t speaking truth to himself. He was listening to the lies of his enemies and so he was abandoned by God he was antagonized by his enemies and thirdly he was afflicted by trials and on top of feeling abandoned and being antagonized by his enemies he was inflicted by many many trials.

People this gets even more weird you have to check it out don't just take my word for it. Ken speaks very highly of a man named HORATIO SPAFFORD folks this guy is beyond a cook and here ken is speaking of him as if his great suffering is Godly and because he was friends with D.L. Moody that it makes him a great Christian. I know this song very well and loved it however after reading about this man and where this song originated I can no longer in good conscience sing it. Please continue reading and you will see why. If I am wrong on any of this please I welcome your comments in response to mine. I'm here because I think these pastor's need to be exposed for the lies they preach and I also believe we need to stop being fed what God's word says and start studying!!!!! Don't take anyone's word at face value you read the scriptures and I would not take a watered down bible either KJV it was written 300-400 years after the original translation.  If your reading his Holy Word don't you want to know exactly what God is telling you? Not what man changes and interprets? Anyways thats my rant on that. Please read below about Horatio and if i'm misinformed your comments are welcomed.


In her carefully researched book of some 400 pages, Jane Geniesse sets forth the real story of Horatio Spafford and his followers—something which few who sing his famous hymn know or want to hear.5 Things were not well with his soul at all.

 

Heresy and Schism

It all begins with heresy. Although Horatio Spafford was a member of a Presbyterian church, he was a fanatical Arminian, believing the false gospel "that any man could save himself through the exercise of free will" (35; cf. Rom. 9:16; Eph. 2:8-9; Gal. 1:8-9). Contrary to the truth of predestination, Christ's particular redemption and sovereign grace, Spafford taught that the Lord Jesus died for all men head for head because God loves and earnestly desires to save everybody, even the devil, for there is no everlasting punishment. As Geniesse puts it, after briefly setting forth the orthodox doctrine of the Westminster Confession, "Horatio, on the other hand, was becoming obsessed with his Arminian views. God, he believed, loved all sinners, and all sinners might be saved, including Satan himself. He was even prepared to deny the existence of hell" (75)!

Horatio Gates Spafford's denial of eternal punishment (62, 75, 83) is flatly contrary to the Word of God (e.g., Matt. 25:46; Mark 9:43-48; Rev. 14:11). Over against the hymn writer's teaching on the salvation of Satan (10, 75, 82, 109), Revelation 20:10 declares, "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone … and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever" (cf. Matt. 25:41). Spafford sought to rob Christ of His punitive work on the judgment day. According to him, Judas, Antichrist, Beelzebub and all his host, as well as "the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars" shall not "have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone" (Rev. 21:8; cf. 22:15). Instead, they shall enter the joy of the everlasting kingdom in the new heavens and the new earth!

In the service of this Origenist theory of the salvation of all men and angels (10), the hymn writer brought in a form of the Roman Catholic doctrine of purgatory (10, 82). Purgatory, of course, denies that Jesus Christ made full satisfaction for all the eternal and temporal punishment which was due to His people. Thus Spafford attacked the Saviour's substitutionary atonement whereby He "by himself purged our sins" and so "sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high" (Heb. 1:3).6

The Bible teaches that there are two places that people go to at death (heaven or hell) and after the final judgment there is everlasting bliss in the new heavens and the new earth or unending woe in the lake of fire. Roman dogma presents three possible destinations at death (heaven or hell or purgatory), with purgatory eventually emptying, leaving the eternal states of heaven and hell. The hymn writer's heresy is even worse than Rome's, for, according to him, the dead go to one of two places (heaven or purgatory—there is no hell) and there is only one everlasting state, heaven, even for the devil!

However, Rev. William C. Young, the minister of Fullerton Avenue Presbyterian Church, Spafford's congregation, held to the infallible Scriptures as summed in the Westminster Confession (75). Horatio hated the truth of Jehovah's sovereign grace and was gaining followers to his own "quixotic heterodoxy" (85; cf. 76). He used "his position as head of the finance committee" and the "principal ruling elder" to call a congregational meeting in July 1876 to allege that Rev. Young was guilty of "poor financial management" in order to oust him (76). Evidently, Spafford expected few to attend apart from his friends and followers so that he would have a majority. He was to be disappointed, for 150 parishioners showed up. Moreover, "the church's finances were actually in better shape than they had been in some time," Horatio lost the vote 126-20 and the membership saw through him and his evil ploy.7 Rev. Young retained his office in the church whereas an indignant Spafford, in a huff, resigned "white with anger" (76; cf. 79).

John Calvin understood from the Word of God the dignity of a true church of Christ and the seriousness of separating from it:

... no one is permitted to spurn its [i.e., a true church's] authority, flout its warnings, resist its counsels, or make light of its chastisements—much less to desert it and break its unity. For the Lord esteems the communion of his church so highly that he counts as a traitor and apostate from Christianity anyone who arrogantly leaves any Christian society, provided it cherishes the true ministry of Word and sacraments. He so esteems the authority of the church that when it is violated he believes his own diminished ... From this it follows that separation from the church is the denial of God and Christ. Hence, we must even more avoid so wicked a separation. For when with all our might we are attempting the overthrow of God's truth, we deserve to have him hurl the whole thunderbolt of his wrath to crush us.8

Calvin also states that "no one escapes the just penalty of this unholy separation [from a true church] without bewitching himself with pestilent errors and foulest delusions."9 How true this is, with Horatio Spafford himself being a clear example, as we shall see.

Soon Spafford added the sin of gross public schism to his sins of heresy and of slandering and seeking to depose a faithful minister. "Immediately, he ordered that a chapel be built [on the land he owned behind his] house," so that in this new congregation "he would regain his position as the undisputed pillar" (76-77).

Like false prophet Harold Camping, from his "bad experience" in an instituted church (brought about by his own egregious sin), Spafford proceeded to write off not just his own local church but all churches. Horatio repeatedly claimed, "God has showed us that 'the Church' in all its parts ... is destitute of spiritual power ... Theirs are false teachings" (121). Horatio, his wife Anna and their followers viewed the visible churches with "contempt" (95; cf. 189, 203, 225), calling them "Babylon" (121, 218).

Instead of the instituted churches, God was now working with Horatio and Anna and their followers, the Spaffordites or Overcomers, as their opponents called them, or the "Saints" (82, 84, 86, 87) or the "Bride" of Christ as they arrogantly called themselves (6, 10, 80, 82, 83, 87, 88, 105, 164, 186, 284). According to Spafford's teaching, "God had chosen the Overcomers instead of the organized church as the new 'holy and peculiar people' to be 'the Bride made one with Him and one another'" (284). Horatio claimed that "to be a true Christian, one must be 'consecrated with the Bride'" (80) for they were "the only ones in the world who would be prepared for [the Lord's] coming" (82), since "the established church had failed in its mission" (80). Spafford's restorationist view was that the church had been "suppressed" and "buried" for centuries but now "with their help" it would rise "phoenix-like" in "this last of the dispensations before Christ's return" (80). Only through Horatio's "developing doctrine," "new truths" (79) and "remarkable insights" would "the world be led back to God" (80). Never mind the work of the Holy Spirit in the development of doctrine in true churches over two thousand years, salvation was only rightly taught in "a religious system of [Spafford’s] own" (65)!

The hymn writer never joined—nor did he even want to join—a true church. In leaving Fullerton Avenue Presbyterian Church and never again becoming a member in a Christian congregation that manifested the three marks of a true church (faithful preaching of the Word, administration of the sacraments and exercise of church discipline), Horatio and his wife practically excommunicated themselves.

I have been unable to ascertain if Spafford's group in Chicago had any ordained office-bearers (pastors, elders and deacons) or administered baptism, the Lord's Supper or church discipline, though, of course, they did have some form of oral communication which may have been called preaching. After they moved to Jerusalem, while Horatio was still living, they appeared even less like an instituted church; after his death, when his wife, Anna, held sway, this trend continued.

In short, whether in Chicago or in Jerusalem, the Spaffordites possessed none of the three marks of a true church (Belgic Confession 29) and neither of the two keys by which the kingdom of heaven is opened and shut (Heidelberg Catechism, Lord's Day 31). With "Horatio's radical gospel" (76), cultic ecclesiology and universalist eschatology, he went from the depths of heresy to the highest schism: declaring his sect the "Bride" of Christ and dismissing all the instituted churches of God.

 

Charismatic Meetings

What were the meetings of Horatio Spafford's new group like? In short, they were precursors of Pentecostal and Charismatic assemblies and in some instances the Overcomers were even worse. "Holy oranges" were used in their services in Chicago and "for a time the congregation sanctified oranges as the presence of the Holy Ghost" (81)! Various "physical manifestations" occurred (83), such as strong shaking (127), jerking and fainting to the floor (81). These are not characteristics of those filled with the Holy Spirit, for He gives us "a sound mind" (II Tim. 1:7).

Some members would "run noisily about during prayer meetings" (82). Later, when the Overcomers moved to Jerusalem, a Muslim man, with his Islamic prayer beads, came to their eight o'clock prayer meetings and "always arrived promptly." Whereas prayer is only to be made to the Triune God through Jesus Christ, the Eternal Son who became incarnate to die for the sins of His sheep, the Muslim continually defamed the Holy Trinity in Horatio's presence (104-105). "His only English words were 'one, not three!' which he should shout loudly at intervals" during the prayer meeting in the Spafford house (104). It is ironic that the Overcomers called all other churches "Babylon," when their own meetings were a veritable Babel of confusion! Peace was not flowing like a river among the followers of the hymn writer.

As well as their disorderly meetings (I Cor. 14:33, 40), the Overcomers claimed they could perform miracles and heal the sick (e.g., 10, 83, 117, 127, 132). Like the Charismatics, but unlike those in Bible times who really did exercise Christ's power to heal, their fraudulent claims were exposed time and time again. Horatio tried but failed to heal a crippled member of their group (106). They failed to raise a baby from the dead (117). When another Overcomer, Mr. Gould, was sick with consumption, the Spaffordites claimed that they would heal him; after he died, they declared that they would resurrect him (132). Despite, their evident failures, like the Pentecostals, few saw through the sham and left. Also this view of sickness, as being brought on and not cured because of an individual's sin, gave scope for Overcomers to accuse an ill fellow member against whom they had a grudge (137).

To cite a couple more bizarre charismatic experiences of the Overcomers, here are two claims of Horatio's wife, Anna, that remind one of the fanaticism of charlatans like Kenneth Hagin or Benny Hinn. First, she was "literally lifted between the floor and the ceiling in her fight with the Devil whom she conquered;" second, she was "transported bodily to the Mount of Transfiguration" (177). Very heady, mystical stuff! But, of course, she saw neither Christ, Moses nor Elijah (on that mountain) nor Satan (in the air) and it was the devil with his lies who got the victory, overcoming Mrs. Spafford.

 

False Prophecy

The thoughtful reader will not be surprised to learn that along with their claims of charismatic manifestations, healings and experiences, Horatio and his wife and group claimed to receive supernatural and miraculous messages, prophecies, signs, encounters, visions, visitations and revelations from God (e.g., 81, 82, 85, 105-107, 158, 161, 168, 169, 172).

Horatio's sister, Margaret Lee, who claimed to have received the "baptism in the Holy Spirit," joined Spafford's group very early (80-81). Maggie received "signs," through movements of various parts of her head. At first, God indicated His will to her through "a loud crack of her teeth," but the volume was too high for her husband and her manifestations could come at inopportune times, such as in the middle of a meal. In response to his prayer, Margaret's sign was transferred to her eyes, which, when drawn back into her head, indicated the divine affirmative. This certainly made for "a more dramatic form of worship than biblical exegesis" and drew a crowd. An observer remarks,

A little community gathered round her who all brought everything in their lives to be tested by the cracking of her jaw [or the withdrawing of her eyes]. They engaged or dismissed servants, arranged their households, transacted their business, gave up old businesses, entered into new businesses, formed friendships, gave up friends, dressed, did everything in fact by the guidance of [Maggie's] sign (81).

Later, Horatio's sister received a third manifestation: the sticking out of her tongue, which the Overcomers viewed as "thrilling, natural, and sacred" (107).

Another lady in the group gave guidance not through her teeth or eyes or tongue but by her nose or, more specifically, her nose's sniffles.

At one point a small party travelled to Boston with neither money nor purpose, guided solely by "a sniffle" from one of their "prophetesses." They were discovered sitting on a curbstone, waiting for further direction from the sniffle. While they all returned safely and quite enjoyed their excursion, the newspapers got wind of the escapade, and there was no end to the ridicule or the interest of reporters (81-82; cf. 158).

Compared to learning God's will from cracking teeth, drawn-in eyes, a protruding tongue or a sniffling nose, opening one's Bible at random for guidance and seizing upon whatever sentence the eye may fall upon (81) or taking "one word out of one passage of Scripture, two out of another and so on, stringing them together so as to make the sense they wished" (109) almost seems semi-sane.

The Spaffordites did not shirk from drawing the inevitable conclusions from these divine messages to male and female members. They advocated and practised women preaching (169), contrary to Scripture (I Cor. 14:34-35; I Tim. 2:12), and called Horatio, Anna and others "prophets" and "prophetesses" (6, 82, 283, 294). This, as many Pentecostals and Charismatics realise, logically follows from their (false) claim to direct revelation, the "Thus saith the Lord" (161). However, the Overcomers were more consistent than most similar groups in our day in that the oracles they received were written down and "treasured as the utterance of God" (148; cf. 168, 298).

Not content with claiming the mantle of "prophets," the original twelve adult Spaffordites who left Chicago for Jerusalem were also "apostles" (90, 253). Horatio's sister, Margaret Lee, was called "Moses" (81, 105) and one "Mrs. L." (another reference to Maggie or a different lady in the group?) "claimed to be John the Baptist, Elijah, Moses and Aaron" (127). Surely, this would have made her much greater than any prophet in the Bible!

But the highest titles were given to Mr. and Mrs. Spafford. Horatio was the "Branch" (105, 106, 127, 164), which Geniesse understands as a reference to John 15:5: "I am the vine, ye are the branches" (105). Anna was the "Bride" (105, 164), for, although originally the group itself was called the "Bride," she "started to lay claim to the title for herself" (105). Thus not only were the Spaffordites the real church on earth, the "Bride," for the Christian churches were apostate, but Horatio's wife was the "Bride" in the highest sense and he personally took upon himself another term for God's church, the "Branch" which abides in Christ (John 15:5)!

 

Four Bad Reasons for Migrating to Jerusalem

Of the four bad reasons for the departure of twelve adult Spaffordites and four children from Chicago for Jerusalem in 1881, two were push factors and two were pull factors. The first push factor was Horatio's grave financial problems. He had been re-mortgaging property and borrowing heavily (83). He was guilty of "financial malfeasance for several years" (64), abusing a number of trusts committed to him, even spending money belonging to his own niece (49, 97). The year he left America for Palestine, Horatio owed over $100,000 (88) and feared that "at any moment he would be served a subpoena from one of his creditors" (89) for he was "in danger of being arrested" (90, 132). Horatio's fraudulent borrowing and financial woes continued in the promised land (e.g., 117-118, 130-131). As we have seen, he was definitely a religious "crank" and probably a financial crook or, at least, an "unmitigated rascal" (131). The U.S. Consul in Jerusalem, Selah Merrill, "was aware of forty-one creditors demanding payments" from the Spaffordites, including their landlord, for they "had not paid rent for over two years" (153). Among the many issues brought up in a Chicago court in April and May of 1895 were the financial improprieties of Horatio and his wife and group (158-162).

The second push factor was the strong (and justified) criticism of Spafford and his followers for their heretical theology and bizarre behaviour. The members of Fullerton Avenue Presbyterian Church and Horatio's neighbours and creditors were disgusted with him (82-90). The Chicago press understandably ridiculed him and his group (3). Not only the Chicago Daily Tribune (76, 84, 326, n. 10) and the Chicago Daily News (82, 326, n. 6), but even the New York Times denounced the "new sect" (10).10

While some speak of Horatio's leaving Chicago for Jerusalem as "stepping out in faith," it is more correct to see it as his fleeing creditors and escaping from bad publicity. Anna herself acknowledged the last two points as reasons for their migration to Palestine: "We must pray now that Mr. Spafford is relieved by the Lord of these debts. We must pray that Mr. Spafford is delivered from those who are persecuting him. We must turn our thoughts to Jerusalem" (87).

The third reason, and the first pull factor, was Spafford's premillennial ideas: the Jews would return to Palestine, Christ would come bodily to Jerusalem and there would be a golden age of 1,000 years (6, 9-10, 36-39). Moreover, Horatio was fascinated with date-setting schemes which claimed to fix the time of the Lord's return (38-39, 84, 166-167). So Jerusalem was an attractive destination to them, especially if they knew (more or less) when Jesus would descend. This is, of course, contrary to Christ's own teaching (Matt. 24:36), though it is fitting that Spafford's first name comes from the Latin for "time"!

To Horatio's millennial mania was added a fourth element: charismatic revelation. His wife received a "supernatural visitation" calling the Overcomers to Jerusalem (89, 105). They must go to the holy city to greet Christ personally at His descent on the Mount of Olives (2, 10, 82, 88, 162, 211), for the hymn writer and his followers were commanded by God to travel to Jerusalem to be the Saviour's special welcoming committee. After that, so they claimed, the Bride will "return in great triumph and blessing to bring the Word to the world" (88)!

 

Failed Eschatological Prophecies

The Spaffordites believed that

the day after they arrived in Jerusalem, the Star of Bethlehem was to ... settle on the head of one of them, and this fact would go out to the world, and immediately all the people who were expecting the Lord's coming, and looking for it, would hasten as fast as possible to Jerusalem and gather round the Star, and then, when all the saints were gathered, the Lord would ascend, and His saints with Him, into the air above Jerusalem (82).

Needless to say, the Star of Bethlehem (Matt. 2:1-10) did not settle on any of their heads. This was just the first of their failed eschatological prophecies.

Soon after their arrival in Jerusalem, "The appointed time found the Overcomers assembled in ascension robes on Mount Olivet ... waiting for the heavens to part" (106). While tarrying for that holy event, Horatio's wife and sister got into a "vitriolic spat" over which of them was the greater prophetess and leader (106). The second advent did not come and the party did not return singing, "When peace, like a river, attendeth my way." This sorry spectacle of the Overcomers traipsing back from the Mount of Olives should be carefully considered by anyone singing this stanza of Spafford's popular hymn (64):

And, Lord, haste the day when the faith shall be sight,
The clouds be rolled back as a scroll,
The trump shall resound, and the Lord will descend
"Even so—it is well with my soul."11

The clouds did not roll back, the trumpet did not sound and the Lord did not descend that day in 1881. The hymn writer is in the long and sorry list of false prophets who engage in date-setting, including William Miller, a baptist lay preacher and a key figure in the rise of the Seventh Day Adventist cult (between 21 March, 1843 and 21 March , 1844; 18 April, 1844; 22 October, 1844), and Harold Camping (on or about 6 September, 1992; 21 May, 2011; 21 October, 2011). By reason of Spafford's shenanigans, "the way of truth [was] evil spoken of" (II Peter 2:2).

That none of the Saints would die before the Lord's coming "had been one of the group's core beliefs" right from the start (121, 134, 139). But die they did. As its typical with apocalyptic sects, Horatio now introduced a condition to try to explain away the falsified prophecy: "no one would die as long as 'they believed in God and overcame all worldly temptations'" (135). But if "avoiding temptation" was "the only way of immortality," as Spafford claimed (136), then a ready excuse is provided (and is even inevitable) for every Overcomer, for no one is sinlessly perfect in this life (I John 1:8)!

After John Whiting, one of the original twelve "apostles" of the Overcomers, died, his mother-in-law (a sharp critic of the sect) sought to erect a headstone on his grave. The Spaffordites refused her "because they expected John to rise soon and meet them walking in the street" (146). This (failed) prophecy of resurrection was just another way of getting around their false eschatological claims proceeding from their millennial madness.

But surely Horatio, the "Branch," would never die! Such was his faith and that of his community: Christ would come before he would die. One version of Spafford's famous hymn declares, "The sky, not the grave, is our goal." This was definitely his own personal hope, for he was not supposed to die and be buried at all! On this basis, even when he was seriously ill, a doctor was deliberately not called (139). Even when Spafford died of malaria on 16 October, 1888, four days shy of his sixtieth birthday, the delusion continued: there was no point erecting a grave stone because the Lord's return was so near (140)!

A mysterious prophecy of Anna's, "Seven years in the land," which was made in 1881 and which could well have been meant and/or understood to fix the year of Christ's return as 1888 (106), was now applied to Horatio himself who had died that year. The "marvelling" (and gullible) Spaffordites were reassured. The apocalyptic prophecies were being fulfilled (141)!

More Overcomers died in the following years. But if anyone wondered how this fitted with their claims of "immortality," "Anna reminded them that, as long as sinful thoughts were not excised with the ruthlessness of a surgical blade, people would die" (148). "The Advent," Anna claimed, "was delayed because her followers had been 'iniquitous'" (215). How convenient!

During World War I, "Anna predicted that Armageddon was at hand" (263). A few months later, General Allenby defeated the Turks at the Battle of Megiddo (September, 1918) and Mrs. Spafford "was deeply satisfied by these biblical associations and assured her people that the prophecies would be fulfilled at last" (272).

Anna especially was believed by herself and her followers to be immortal (186, 285, 294, 296) but she too died (17 April, 1923). After that, "Months passed. There was no sign of the millennium. The Messiah did not come; the prophecies remained unfulfilled. Bereft, the congregation floated, doing what they had always done. As they had been trained, they asked no questions; they tried not to think" (297).

Horatio's millennial predictions were a grand delusion, as empty as a dream. As an instance of those "evil men and seducers" of whom II Timothy 3:13 warns, the hymn writer ruined his life and many others by "deceiving, and being deceived."

 

Cultic Practices

We should now consider more closely the cultic practices of Horatio Spafford's group and see how they flowed out of their key beliefs and fitted together. Hannah Whitall Smith, herself a Quaker and generally sympathetic to "deluded" people "of every stripe," investigated many fanatical religious sects, compiled a file (324, n. 16) and published her findings. Out of all the various weird groups, she calls the Overcomers "one of the strangest" (325, n. 4). She had very good reason, as we shall see.

While in Chicago, the Spaffordites manifested bizarre behaviour, but it was when they established the American Colony in Jerusalem and lived "as one religious household" (109) that they became even more cultic. They practised a form of communism (109, 193) for all things were to be shared in common (238, 290). People would sell their farms or give their savings into a common kitty (90, 165, 193, 333, n. 17), into which salaries too would go (290). Members were not allowed a bank account of their own and had to ask for money from the cult leaders, say, to buy clothes or shoes (165, 234).

Like those in the church at Thessalonica whom Paul rebuked for not working because of a mistaken notion that Christ was to return in the next few days (II Thess. 3:6-12), Horatio too refused to work (129, 132-133, 149, 312-313), merely idling and rambling around Jerusalem (118). Though rejecting work, he did not reject borrowing or indebtedness (313). "The Lord," he said, "has better things for us to do than work" (133). However, in Psalm 128:1-2, the church sings "Blessed is every one that feareth the Lord; that walketh in his ways. For thou shalt eat the labour of thine hands: happy shalt thou be, and it shall be well with thee."

The Overcomers' false view of the imminence of Christ's coming also led to their neglecting the education of their children (except those of the Spaffords!) because, once the millennium arrived, "they would be educated in a moment" (163; cf. 120, 180). Horatio also betrayed his Anabaptist and cultic spirit when he rejected historical and Christian books given to a member of his community, and promptly returned them: "We have no need of these histories. Our true education is about to come" (119).

Horatio's eschatology meant that he and his group, unlike all the missionary groups in Jerusalem, "made no attempt to proselytize" (104; cf. 111, 255). Why? Spafford's first reason was that the millennium had not yet come.

Horatio and Anna did not wish to evangelize the Jews they met any more than they hoped to convert their Arab friends. The time was not ripe, they acknowledged to themselves, although one day the Lord would surely summon the world to the truths He had vouchsafed their little fellowship (111).

Second, Horatio denied hell, affirmed purgatory and taught universalism, even including the salvation of Satan.12 For Spafford, ultimately, it will be well with everyone's soul for all will end up in heaven. But then why bother witnessing, especially to Jews and Muslims and in such a combustible place as Jerusalem, if all will eventually be saved anyway? Horatio's hyper-Arminian universalism led to the same sinful paralysis of witnessing as the evil of hyper-Calvinism does at the other extreme!

The Spaffordites' charismatic view of healing involved a "strict ban on medicine and doctors" (177; cf. 117, 118, 145, 147, 188, 255), resulting in preventable deaths (117, 177). After all, calling for a doctor or using medicine betrays a lack of faith! This rule was applied even to Horatio himself during his final illness (139). The Overcomers' cultic position that there was to be no mourning for the dead (140, 142, 145, 188-189, 254) was also observed regarding the hymn writer. His own wife never mourned for him (139-140, 143) and she even danced at his death (223, 295-296)! Following their mother's example, her daughters celebrated when Anna died (295-296). This is unnatural and unbiblical. We are not forbidden to weep at the death of a believer—Christ did (John 11:35). We are forbidden to sorrow as if we had no hope of the general resurrection, like the unbelieving pagans (I Thess. 4:13).

 

Attack on Marriage and Family

One of the most distressing cultic characteristics of the Spaffordites involved marriage. First, millennial sects like theirs often abolish marriage.13 The argument is simple to grasp. Since marriage is a feature of this age and not the next (Luke 20:34-35) and the millennium is just about to start, those who are truly zealous for the Lord can hasten or prepare for His coming by ending marriage. Second, Horatio claimed that God had given him divine revelation, which he passed on first to his wife (136) and then to his community (137): now all the Overcomers had to be celibate! Wedding rings were to be taken off and destroyed or sold (137, 145).

What the Spirit "expressly" calls the devilish doctrine of "forbidding to marry" (I Tim. 4:1-3) was introduced as if it were the teaching of the Holy Ghost, and married people had to live as if they were not married (161, 172-174, 212), though not all readily acceded to this new revelation (137, 163, 173, 192). Anna even had the gall to declare that "marriage was license to sin" (215), again directly contrary to the Word of God (Gen. 2:18; I Cor. 7:19).

The Chicago Journal noted that the Overcomers' household in Jerusalem consisted of "175 persons, of whom 100 are women, many other girls of marriageable age, and only 40 men." It all made for a "hotbed of sexuality" (192). Mrs. Spafford's unclean spirit had given her a revelation that made a bad situation worse:

At a meeting, Anna revealed a message. Her followers were to be tested by having "affinities." There were no longer any married couples. Instead, each man was to have an "affinity" with one of the younger women. Anna set about designating couples, commanding them to spend the night in bed together. They were to abjure sexual attraction as a vehicle to "overcome" temptation, and to report to her any details of their relationships. "We are to be like Adam and Eve before the fall," she warned, and frequently invited Jacob Eliahu to her room alone (149; cf. 151, 153).14

This is not "overcoming" temptation; this is putting oneself needlessly in the way of temptation and so tempting God (Deut. 6:16). Holy Writ calls us to "flee fornication" (I Cor. 6:18; Gen. 39:12) and to "make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof" (Rom. 13:14).

Even before Horatio's death, Anna repeatedly committed adultery with another man. This was how she piously sought to pass it off: "For 'the spiritual training' of herself and her husband, she told the group, she would become 'one' with another man" (138). This is Antinomianism of the worst sort! Spafford's wife was a modern "Jezebel" and the hymn writer falls under the condemnation of Revelation 2:20: "thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication." Scripture says, "Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge" (Heb. 13:4)!

Following logically upon the dissolution of marriage, children were "forcibly taken away from their parents to be supervised and to sleep in rooms with unmarried women" (177), bringing many tears and much grief (177-178, 214-215). Why should the church sing hymns written by an enemy of the Christian family? Why not sing songs given by the Holy Spirit, such as Psalms 127 and 128 on the permanence and blessedness of godly marriage and children in this life?

 

"New Dispensation"

With a cooling of apocalyptic fervour and the community's increased chaffing at the unnatural denial of marriage, the beginning of the twentieth century marked a "new dispensation" at the American Colony (219, 234). "Anna, ever the realist, decided it was time to countenance young men and women 'going together,' and accordingly received a 'message'" (215). Charismatic revelation can be so convenient!

Mrs. Spafford, however, still wanted to retain control. After all, she had renamed the members of the community (103, 119) and she, the undoubted leader, was to be called "Mother" (172, 297), as well as the "Bride," for all were subject to her (161, 163). Just as she appointed her favourite as manager of the Colony's store (208), she "also decided who was to be 'engaged' and to whom" (215; cf. 216-217). Later, Anna claimed that the Overcomers "had won their battle for purity" (even though they had fallen into debauchery) and they could even have an extremely lavish wedding for her daughter, Bertha, with a Lutheran pastor officiating. Evidently, the instituted churches were no longer "Babylon" (218)!

With the return of courtship and marriage, parents could now raise their own babies (234). Around the same time, doctors and medicine were permitted —first of all in the instance of an Overcomer who survived his suicide attempt (216). Even the bizarre ban on gravestones, which supposedly "prevented the dead from rising" (188; cf. 140, 163), was overturned, with Mrs. Spafford herself being buried on Mount Scopus with "a simple stone marked 'Mother' on her grave," though the prohibition against mourning was apparently still in place, for that day the Overcomers were "trying to suppress their tears" (297).

 

Conclusion

Horatio's story, complete with sanctified oranges, holy sniffles, ascension robes and discarded wedding rings, is fascinating but sad, and much more that is bizarre and instructive could be added.15

But enough has been said to reveal that Horatio Spafford was a rabid Arminian and a universalist, who believed in the salvation of Satan and purgatory (like Roman Catholicism). The hymn writer was also a false prophet, a charismatic and a cult leader. The heretical teaching and utopian community of the "Branch" and his "Bride" were not in the way of Christ's peace. It was not well with his soul. Surely, it is far better to sing the 150 inspired Psalms written by true prophets of Jesus Christ, the Branch (Isa. 11:1; Jer. 23:5; 33:15; Zech. 3:8; 6:12), for His beloved bride, the church (Eph. 5:23-32).

formerlbcmember

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Here's how Piper and JM along with Pastor Ramey present Horatio

It Is Well with My Soul

[image]
Article by

Staff writer, desiringGod.org

God has given us a merciful gift in music authored in the midst of great tragedy. A song often has the power to express and comfort pain when words alone feel empty. Again and again, “It Is Well” has met and carried saints through the worst kinds of suffering, reminding us of the deep, abiding, sovereign Well at the bottom of our joy and life.

Recently, we recorded Jimmy Needham singing “It Is Well.” It’s a track from his latest album, The Hymn Sessions. At the three-minute mark of the video below, John Piper tells the moving story behind the hymn. Horatio Spafford lost his four daughters in a tragic accident at sea. And in those horrifying moments, God amazingly put these lyrics on his lips.

Here's how Wiki presents him and then listen to how Pastor Ramey talks about him

This hymn was written after traumatic events in Spafford's life. The first was the death of his son at the age of 2 and the Great Chicago Fire of 1871, which ruined him financially (he had been a successful lawyer and had invested significantly in property in the area of Chicago that was extensively damaged by the great fire). His business interests were further hit by the economic downturn of 1873, at which time he had planned to travel to Europe with his family on the SS Ville du Havre. In a late change of plan, he sent the family ahead while he was delayed on business concerning zoning problems following the Great Chicago Fire. While crossing the Atlantic, the ship sank rapidly after a collision with a sea vessel, the Loch Earn, and all four of Spafford's daughters died. His wife Anna survived and sent him the now famous telegram, "Saved alone …". Shortly afterwards, as Spafford traveled to meet his grieving wife, he was inspired to write these words as his ship passed near where his daughters had died.[3]

Bliss called his tune Ville du Havre, from the name of the stricken vessel.[4]

The Spaffords later had three more children. On February 11, 1880, their son, Horatio Goertner Spafford, died at the age of four, of scarlet fever. Their daughters were Bertha Hedges Spafford (born March 24, 1878) and Grace Spafford (born January 18, 1881). Their Presbyterian church regarded their tragedy as divine punishment. In response, the Spaffords formed their own Messianic sect, dubbed "the Overcomers" by American press. In 1881, the Spaffords, including baby Bertha and newborn Grace, set sail for Ottoman-Turkish Palestine. The Spaffords settled in Jerusalem and helped found a group called the American Colony. Colony members, later joined by Swedish Christians, engaged in philanthropic work among the people of Jerusalem regardless of their religious affiliation and without proselytizing motives—thereby gaining the trust of the local Muslim, Jewish, and Christian communities. During and immediately after World War I, the American Colony played a critical role in supporting these communities through the great suffering and deprivations by running soup kitchens, hospitals, orphanages and other charitable ventures. The colony later became the subject of Jerusalem by the Nobel prize-winning author, Swedish novelist Selma Lagerlöf.[3]


formerlbcmember

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Reply with quote  #22 
By the way I'm not q calvinist just copied the information
bjw

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I wonder if the Calvinist author hasn't considered that Calvin himself and Geneva may be grouped in with these cultists?

I agree Ken Ramey may be having second thoughts about his behavior and hopefully is under conviction. However, judging by the tripe I was fed at GCC, they see any criticism, even legitimate criticism, against them as a witch hunt and persecution.  When followers find out about it they use it to try to say it is proof they have the true Gospel. So, in their minds, they would even use this website as proof that MacArthur and Ramey are following the true Gospel.  I think that's why he claims he is being trolled to his followers when in reality all that has been presented is facts.  It's quite telling he's more concerned about these facts getting out than addressing them.
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Paster Ken Ramey basically stated he is angry, unhappy, upset, offended, afflicted, abandoned, and in mourning all because "he was listening to the lies of his enemies." 

Is he in this pathetic state because "he was listening to the lies of his enemies" or because his enemies (Christians) have exposed the truth about him? 

"Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?"

Of interest, Horatio Spafford's father corresponded with Thomas Jefferson, who is considered to be a Master Mason.  According to this Masonic website:

"At the dedication of the Boston Masonic Temple, May 30, 1832 Bernard Whitman stated that all the presidents of the United States up to that time had been Masons except two. The two he referred to must have been the Adams', for both Father and Son were anti- masonic. Today when many would disclaim Thomas Jefferson as being a Master Mason, The United States Government lists Thomas Jefferson as a Master Mason in all its publications. (L

formerlbcmember

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Reply with quote  #25 
BJW and watchmen are right. I know these other Christians exposing him and we are kicking ourselves for ever listening to the crap these guys have shoveled. I was asleep and now that I personally have awakened to these teachings I see how dangerous they are. Did you know in Kens recent sermons on "it is not well with my soul" he is craftily discouraging people struggling with depression to not take it. He mentions paxal and is giving an alternative where he talks about mascal. It's a weird parallel and his messages are more strongly suggestive. He says on one side of his mouth if you need it take it but the other side he's strongly pushing the spiritual aspect the biblical way of dealing with it and using himself his spiritual depression to discourage medication. Like I said he's not out rightly saying don't take antidepressants but is in fact using a highly suggestive message to discourage it. This is very dangerous as GCC has a history of one student who listened to their garbage denied medical treatment and committed suicide. These men are pastors not health professionals and this pastor is so arrogant that he is using his platform to push his views. These members have an unatural attachment to him. Did you know that ken got up there and said " don't worry I'm not leaving this church or going anywhere " I guess he pushed the whoas me card so hard people assumed he was stepping down from the ministry. I mean cry me a freaking river ken. Anyways everyone began applauding and shouting out when he said this. Ken has his eyes on the prize and I believe he wants to be the next John macarthur or up in that Escalon. His wife and son already have their eyes on making statements that they want to go to Switzerland I bet you they will end up going for some ministry trip! Back to the applause it is very clear these people worship ken but not the new people coming in yet and certainly not those who will soon find themselves in his crosshairs and will find themselves under church discipline. There is so much to expose this man on and we need to keep our eye on him as well as others who are JM protégé's they are trying to take over good solid churches and missionaries who have plowed the fields, harvested, and then discard our Lords saints as if they mean nothing!
formerlbcmember

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Reply with quote  #26 
It's also funny how these men such as ken , JM, piper liken themselves to the apostle Paul and Timothy. They are no paul and certainly no Timothy. These privileged who receive a massive pay package from the members of the church they claim to watch over (sounds like the mafia to me we watch over you but you pay us a tax kind of deal) they have no clue what it means to suffer as the apostle paul did. I'm offended by them likening themselves to paul and Timothy. Some are called to the ministry of preaching and these men are not called in my book not when they collect massive pay packages and travel around the world. I know of pastors who worked two jobs and preached because they didn't suck off the church they actually gave to those in need and those who were in the mission field. I consider men like ken leeches especially when he doesn't even research his own sermons. He takes sermons from other men and tweaks them. I have found so many already of kens that are not his own. It's like they feed off each other because the Holy Spirit sure isn't working those sermons which control the church! I do believe that Gods word in spite of these men comes through because it is a living book. He is a Holy and amazing God whom I serve and I am grateful to the blogger here who has created a platform to expose Macarthurs heresy and his minions. 
watchmanwakes

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"They are trying to take over good solid churches and missionaries who have plowed the fields, harvested, and then discard our Lords saints as if they mean nothing!" 

This is what they do.  This is their MO.  Lakeside Bible Church was created from a church split.  Macarthurites have taken control of many churches by what could be described as hostile takeovers.  John Macarthur's Grace Advance is training seminary students to lead "existing churches."   I wonder what percentage of pastors trained by John Macarthur have actually started churches.  The following from The Macarthurism Cult's Rapid Reproduction Via Church Takovers is right on the mark.

"John MacArthur’s influence throughout the Christian community is extensive and continues to expand due to the global network of churches, colleges, and seminaries which propagate his teachings. The vast network of MacArthur-dominated churches is to a great extent formerly independent, fundamental churches that have been taken over and reimaged as non-denominational. Graduates of The Master’s Academy International, the Master’s Seminary and its branches fill the pulpits of these churches which have been renamed using a combination of generic terms such as 'Harvest,' 'Bible,' 'Grace,' 'Community,' 'Church,' 'Chapel,' 'Fellowship'—anything but 'Christian.' Not until one attends these churches for a period of time does it become apparent that they are under the influence and idolatry of John MacArthur. One critic of the 'Macarthurism' cult wrote of its rapid reproduction via church takeovers:

"'The Masters Seminary, where John MacArthur is the master, is the principal training center for the cult. In the early 1980’s TMS sent out trainers throughout the world to host large conferences that introduced the doctrines of MacArthurism. Australasia, in particular, was seen as an important mission ground. The greater organization uses a technique nothing short of hi-jacking to further their doctrinal empire. It has been observed that the cult’s primary mode of operating is to target the young men from churches with aging congregations and little or no corporate leadership. Over the last twenty years many young men from Australia and New Zealand were persuaded to attend MacArthur’s Seminary. Graduates steadily flowed back from the training center and returned to their sending church. Within only a short period MacArthur’s graduates took control of the church. They would arrange to be appointed as head pastor and begin paying themselves a salary, even when the church had never needed to do so before. Before long the TMS graduate would have his friends as elders and the power base was completed. Most of the church buildings are too small for idealistic ‘big church’ MacArthurism. Within time the building will be sold and a large development will be bought or built as a mirror image of the U.S. model. Anyone in the original congregation who refuses to follow the new ways is likely termed ‘divisive’ and is usually ‘dismissed’ quickly. MacArthurism has advanced by re-infiltration of an existing bone fide church, altering its structure from within, thus reducing it to a cult group with isolationist ideas. MacArthurism continues to prosper by this divisive technique.'" 

This critic of Macarthurism certainly hit a bulls-eye with this assessment. 

 

 

 



formerlbcmember

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Watchmenwakes you to are on the bullseye and I have figured it out with the help of this website. I am so greateful to you guys here. You have no idea and believe it or not others will be thankful to you for it as well. It is really eye opening and it's a journey to get to the core issue once you have been indoctrinated. God has a funny way of revealing truth to His people. I know that what you say is exactly dead on the mark as we are seeing it everywhere. I see it just out of Ken Ramey's church. This guy is very slick and he has been training all the men to do exactly what you speak of. They are indoctrinating the youth in his own church and every parent must send their kids to the camps, training, youth group, ect.... he doesn't force you but spiritually he does and it's all very suggestive and manipulative. Not to mention these members have this man on a throne. He says not to put him on a pedistool but that is exactly where he is and he likes it. He attempts to play the humility card but for those of us who see we see right through his lies. I am hitting hard on Ramey because one it is very hurtful to be deceived especially when its coming from the pastor/elders. I mean seriously it's no different then washington dc and all the politicians. They use the people to further their little kingdoms and get what they want. This is why we are in the world but not to be of the world. We are aliens and strangers and are called to be the salt of the earth and different. Don't identify with the world or it's pleasures. I know pastors who live for Christ and not what the church will pay them. In fact they still work apart from the church and are in their 70's. Theres no health care packages, retirement packages , no six figure incomes as ken ramey and macarthurites have. A member once stated that ken deserved a six figure income and more because he has a doctorate degree, is this person serious? Ken talks about men who don't work are worse than tax collectors. Is this guy full of himself or what? He doesn't lift a finger yet he gets a six figure income while men and women are struggling in the church where he collects their money. Oh yea and if you want help you need to go through a humiliating process when you ask these men to help you. They want to know everything about your finances and then they decide if you are poor enough to get it. I once heard ken thank a member for not asking for help. Unbelievable. I also heard of an elder tylor jacobs who gave a woman some old bread when she was running away from her abusive husband and told her thats all the church had. She had three kids and nowhere to sleep. Another member saw that and ran after her. This woman found out her story took her to walmart and bought her food. She and some ladies there helped set her up somewhere and she is working in a city job to this day. When asked why he turned her away tyler stated " well you know how those people are they go from church to church getting what they can" something to that effect. She then went to ken ramey and you know what? he said the same thing. I couldn't believe it when I heard this i'm still stunned and upset that this is how they treat a single mother with three babies who was physically abused and wanted help. I guess ken doesn't know "when I was hungry you fed me when I was naked you clothed me" They only help those they deem worthy of it and when they do people are in tears over the humiliation. 
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Reply with quote  #29 
A pastor should encourage things like prayer and bible reading for depression.  When they discourage legal medication then it seems they are getting cult-like (JW's come to mind). 

I've noticed that Ramey tries to sound exactly like Macarthur and it also looks like he is reading his sermons which could be evidence he doesn't have the Holy Spirit. 

Could Ramey get a secular job that pays him a comparable salary and with these benefits and perks (does LBC pay for his vacations)?  I was once told about another Macarthurite pastor who on top of his salary, demanded the church pick up the tab for his entire large family to go on vacation 4 times a year.   But Ramey has a long way to
go before reaching Macarthur's benefit package.  When it's all added up (salaries, book royalties) Macarthur may make 2 million a year plus first class world-wide travel...  And don't forget his armed body guards.  Who pays for them?  And don't forget Macarthur's son-in-law, Kory Welch, whose private firm receives about $800,000 a year from Grace To You for video production.  Witnesses say Macarthur once admitted from his pulpit that he "worshipped the offering plate."   
formerlbcmember

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Hi wathman,

 Well I do believe that the church picks it up. When he and kelly went to New Zealand he stated someone in the church bought them the airfare for their anniversary back in 2013. When he went to singapore recently he stated at the beginning of our service that the elders and church wanted him to take a family member with him he choose his son zach who by the way is far from exhibiting the christian walk. All you need to do is check out his facebook page and see what he posts oh and his twitter. He has photographs of song artists who display the upside down cross. He is chorting with a youtuber who clearly presents himself as gay/feminine. He uses vulgarity and really strong sexual content in his youtube videos (the youtuber). Zach ramey has met up with this guy. The guy puts on dresses, wigs, lipstick. I could care less if its funny he certainly presents himself in a way that is very worldly and i'm not attacking the guy for being gay. If that is what he is its his choice but as a believer we are not to be like the world or associate with them in a way where you can't tell the difference. His son moved out of his house early because there was friction in his household. I thought an elder was to have control of his own home? Maybe thats why his son left but still enjoys every perk the church offers. This kid I was told and shown that he was talking about going clubbing in singapore when this was supposed to be a ministry trip and bonding time with his father. Nowhere in those posts are there pictures of any bonding. It's a kid who looks like he's on an excellent vacation with no parents. I can't blame the guy for going but Ken on the other hand could have taken someone who would have been there for the ministry not a vacation. Anyways I have no doubt ken has a killer pay and vacation package. All his kids got to go to private christian school and i'm certain their college will be mostly taken care of if not all of it. He cries a good game here but i'm not buying the i'm just like you i'm poor act. He lives in a community where the average income is 170,000 + a year. He plays golf, takes more ministry trips than any other pastor I know of. He even takes church members who of course are the in group the click. Those who idolize him. You see the same ones all the time. Missions trips are for young people not the adults in my experience. Also there is no offering plate at lbc there is a box where people put their checks. It appears above reproach but these people want to please their pastor and there are those who are very faithful in giving. I totally respect that and if they are giving right even to this church I believe God honors their heart when they give. It's just sad that their money doesn't go for those in need most of the time. I found out Mr. Parrot needed a kidney and the church had the money in the bank to pay for it outright 300,000 and he didn't have the money. They said that money was the building funds money. I guess buildings are more important than the christian in need of sticking around for his five children and wife. God was faithful in spite of that attitude and He provided mr. parrot a transplant and the funds. I don't see how he can in good conscience take money knowing that there are seniors and sick who need vacations and financial help or just help. This to me isn't a place where the Holy Spirit is present except in those who are in that church and who do love unconditionally. I don't attribute all of this to all of it's members. A lot are deceived and duped its a matter of time before they see.
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Reply with quote  #31 
I have looked at several Facebook pages of the Macarthurites and their family members and have found them to be revealing.  Often much evidence they love the world and often no evidence they are Christians.  

Have you seen any evidence that LBC is taking or preparing to take any Faith-Based gov't money?  

formerlbcmember

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No not yet but I have recently worked with some other former members.  We sent off several emails and this is one response I received last night. I'm going to copy and paste. I won't give the name of this member so as to not embarrass anyone but it does reveal a lot of about the members and that you can say something negative about their pastor and they will come at you like vipers. Clearly the Holy Spirit has left the building if this is the attitude of those who are in line to protect ken at all costs. You decide maybe i'm missing something here. Your feedback is welcome even the lbc members are welcome to give me feedback I have nothing to hide except we decided not to reveal who we are since some of us still attend and only because they want to continue to gather information and expose these churches. If this offends members, well to bad you can't have it your way. We know the deal with their shunning, five on one meetings, church discipline in order to keep the sheep in line well the sheep are smart. We are also fed up with the shenanigans of lbc elders and it's followers who like to enjoy the comforts of favoritism and benefit from others members tithes all the while seeking out dissenters or keeping others in line. Now all this stuff has come out Luke 8:17 pastor Ramey's favorite verse right back at you ken 17 For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad.

Here's the email that was sent to me yesterday by a lbc member you decide if this guy is right in what he says.

 
Yesterday, 8:13 PMYou
 
I skimmed your last mail abt k ramey........you seem to be preoccupied with sex.  You should see someone about the problems you are having.  If you keep thinking about sex all the time - as you are - you might start to do some of the things you think about.   I am told that is how it works.  I feel sorry that you are so bitter.  That leads to sin, you know.
I guess you know that big time since you keep sending out these lies about a man who loves God.  Do you love God or is that god?
 
You sound very prideful.  Like you love telling secret information - you should read Proverbs.  You will be sorry when you do meet God.  I read in His Word what will happen to you.  You are becoming a sick person.  Getting pleasure from telling things.  It shows.  You are enjoying spreading lies.  Joke is on you though.  Your secret is out.
 
You do not believe God is powerful enough to bring justice - you have to help Him, so you send out these mailings to help God out.  You have a very small god since he needs you so badly.  That is another way you are sick.  Sin sick.  Sick with sin.  You make yourself a judge when only God is big enough to do that.  Your small god needs lots of help.  Little, little god.  
 
How can you think of a god who is so small?  I just tried and that seems very hard.  The real God is all powerful.  He is in control.  Your god is tiny and needs your help.
He can't do it without you.  
 
Are you a member of that crazy Baptist church that protests at military funerals?  Maybe you should think about joining them if you haven't already, because they think a lot like you. Their god needs help too, just like yours.  then you could share in their money from lawsuits.  Is that what you want?  
 
Oh that is right,  you just perform a public service  ---  that should be   "pubic" service since sex is always on your mind.  Are you perverted?  I mean, do you do stuff you would be ashamed for normal people to know about?  Probably do.  You like to talk about it cause you mention sex  all the time.  SEX sex SEX
 
Just thought I would throw that last in to make you feel better.
 
Robert Robert

Here's what was sent to the church along with the photos that were copy and pasted from this blog along with what was copied in google search engine.

A GROUP OF US SENT THIS OUT TO EVERY MEMBER INCLUDING FORMER MEMBERS DATING ALL THE WAY BACK TO 2001. It was a group effort to send them. The email above is a reflection as to why they are so angry with me and anyone else calling out pastor ramey and the elders of this church. We know there are many other MacArthur churches but right now we are focused on one and will be searching out others. This is an effort to warn those who step foot in these type of churches to find a church where your freedom in Christ isn't trampled. Find a church and a pastor who preaches the word of God and where the Holy Spirit is clearly present. Ask God to guide you in your search for a church that truly loves the Lord and people.

Here's that sermon transcribed word for word!
 

In my first internship under a youth pastor ( my mentor) we had a great relationship I wanted to be just like him, he was like Paul and I was Timothy.  He pulled me aside one day at his home and told me that he had contemplated committing suicide.  I was stunned and didn't know how to deal with that! He told me that he got a call from a federal agent.   A town that he use to minister in he said he was involved sexually with one of the girls in his youth ministry.  She was a minor and he had to go down to testify  because he was charged with sexual assault of a minor. So, I stuck with him throughout this process and I stayed faithful and loyal to him.  Like I said he was like a spiritual daddy to me.

I asked him to tell me how did this happen? So it doesn't happen to me.  I couldn't wrap my mind around that! And he said Ken! You know what? When I got to that church God was blessing it and things were just going great!!! It was growing and kids were coming out of the woodwork's.  I got so busy, I got tired and I stopped having my quiet time.  I just stopped spending time in God's word because I was so busyI would stay up late and wake up early and then there was this girl.   She was 17 and was acting like a 35 year old aggressive , seductive womanwho was full on perusing me, is what he said.  She was relentless and would not stop.  In a moments weakness he said " I gave in to that temptation".  And again even even when he moved away part of it was covering his family, he wanted to get away from this situation.  So he went and took another ministry where I had met up with him in this new town in an attempt to get away from her. She continued to call him and pursue him even while he was away.  Anyways she got involved with other men after that as well and ended up at a christian college.  She got herself into counseling and in the counseling session this all came out.  She had been involved with a married man.  She was a minor da duh duh duh da! This is how the whole thing happened and through the whole process we never sensed that she was at all repentant or broken about any of this, it was almost like she had a bold face " what did I do wrong"? Like if that guy were back in her life she would still be pursuing him.  Ok, and it was like whoaa......


  Several years later I had heard that she died in a car accident.  She had been driving and exited , she was going back to college. She crashed her car and died.  For the first time I thought to myself "I wonder if here was a professing christian, Right?  A professing christian saying that she loved the Lord and all this stuff, Right? She as living this secret life of sin.  I thought the Lord Just sometimes take those kind of people out? Right? I mean so they don't bring shame and dishonor on the name of Christ.  I don't know that's a whole other discussion, right? ( Ken Chuckles) to get into.  The point is this " Sin leads to what? Death!!! When sin is accomplished it brings forth death!


 



From: Minni Seymore <blainelyssa@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2016 11:40 AM
To: formerlbcmember@hotmail.com
Subject: Fwd:
 

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Minni Seymore <blainelyssa@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, Oct 23, 2016 at 2:23 PM
Subject: Re:
To: Tiffany Quimby <tlk14@hotmail.com>


Accusations is the correct word because to my knowledge these people haven't been tried and convicted of anything. Have they? So just as the court system uses them, accused and alleged, would be appropriate. If someone has been convicted and I am just not aware then it would be different verbiage.
Greg Todd, Convicted of 2 counts of aggravated sexual assault against a child in the First degree this is one step down from capital murder! I copied this off of Google search. This is also posted on that sight the wartburg. The judges signature along with this person's attorney and his signature on this legal document. It also has the judges seal.

Image result for shauna and billy documents
Two other members at LBC are on the Registered Sex Offenders registry they have been tried and convicted of child sexual assault. Ken is not being charged with a crime he is being outed for supporting these people and his own emails and audio's state that. Ken himself says it and shows his support. So either your completely incompetent or your drinking the kool aide that is fed to you. Either way that is your business but don't tell me no one hasn't been convicted.
Image result for shauna and billy documents
Image result for shauna and billy documents
The child's rape examination after the assault

Image result for shauna and billy documents
The child admitted to a place where they specialize in children who have been raped/sexually abused! These people actually do work with hurting kids and from what i understand it is locked down for only children of sexual abuse and the detectives and counselors who are trained specifically in the area of trauma. These are actual professionals not ones who take a three week counseling course through the church and call themselves counselors working with troubled youth. 
Image result for shauna and billy documents
This is using a pseudonym in it's correct form and appropriately
Image result for shauna and billy documents
Hmm cost of ambulance the night of this kids assault and your singing kens tune that this was a child who participated in his own rape. Interesting because if you had a clue you would condemn ken for supporting his rapist and attempting to blame the mother and her child for the abuse. Instead you say they are just accusations, ok whatever your choice on what you want to believe. I feel for your kid and hope that she doesn't become the 1 in 4 girls that will be sexually abused by the time she hits her 18th birthday. This is a statistic and by ignoring facts and being loosy goosey with men who don't protect places yours and other parents children at a higher risk to be abused. It is my opinion based on the facts that I have now become aware of. This boys mother probably never imagined her son would fall under the statistics but unfortunately that is what has happened. What is worse is the treatment they have received from our church. Ken and the elders including Rusty Koch gooses are cooked over all these shenanigans and they know it. This is also not the only child sex abuse claim that is out there. By ken's own words he condemns a young 17 year old girl in a sermon of his saying she deserved to die because God just sometimes takes people like her out. Why? Because she was hurting over the abuse of Ken's mentor and sought counseling and it came out she had been abused. The pastor was then charged with child abuse and ken turns it around on here while supporting his mentor/friend/ and youth pastor! These are kens words and believe me the audio will be posted along with the transcribed sermon.  Shame on ken because he tried to make this young girl responsible for her own abuse just as he tried to make this boy responsible for his abuse. I see a clear cut pattern and ken knows his sin is being exposed. Rather than apologize he continues to shame and slander. Well not this time and we are close to finding out who this girl is and who her parents are. I have no doubt that when we find them and as difficult as it will be they will want to know how Pastor Ken has slandered, shamed, implied she is whore in his statement about her in that sermon , and will want to know that he has said that God took people like her out for her sin because she wouldn't say she had responsibility in her abuse! These are ken ramey's words not mine or anyone elses. He has a problem and that is attacking children who are rape victims!

On Sun, Oct 23, 2016 at 10:14 AM, Minni Seymore <blainelyssa@gmail.com> wrote:
Your not spiritually mature but you seem to be very aware of legal terms as you use them quite well. Your definitely no lawyer, but interesting.  As I have said before exposure is coming and that is all I need to say. Thank you so much for the email. Have a great day. 


On Sunday, October 23, 2016, Tiffany Quimby <tlk14@hotmail.com> wrote:
What need would I have to send this thread to the elders? You are, in fact, completely wrong about that. The discussion was between you and me, not anyone else. 
 
Accusations is the correct word because to my knowledge these people haven't been tried and convicted of anything. Have they? So just as the court system uses them, accused and alleged, would be appropriate. If someone has been convicted and I am just not aware then it would be different verbiage.
 
I believe I have stated numerous times that I'm not defending anyone regarding these accusations, and that still holds true. I'm not defending anyone. I have no knowledge of any subjects you speak of besides what you and the other two people who were formerly members have sent me.
 
I will support my dad because he is my father but I'm not naive enough to think that he doesn't sin. Saying "he's my dad and he doesn't lie" would be stupid - everyone has lied before. When church business is concerned he doesn't talk to me about it and I certainly wasn't there so I cannot say what went on and what didn't or know what is true or not.  Hence the reason for not wasting time disputing any of the subject matter. 
 
I'm still not angry about any of this or holding on to any anger. If you read it that way then you read it incorrectly. 
 

 
 
-------- Original message --------
From: Minni Seymore <blainelyssa@gmail.com>
Date: 10/22/16 11:38 PM (GMT-06:00)
To: Tiffany Quimby <tlk14@hotmail.com>
Subject:
 
I don't do digs as I told you before i'm incredibly direct and I do not sugar coat anything. I say it like it is kind of like you, right? When you say you don't trust SOMETHING because SOMEONE SAYS IT that implies that you are referring to the person you are talking to it is a very general statement and very manipulative.
Spiritual maturity hmmmm well if your not spiritually mature then I wonder why you bothered to enter into a discussion with me?
If your well aware of mandated reporting then your statements would have been different I don't need to repeat what I said I have no doubt you have sent these emails to the elders. Thats ok though they can read them over and over if they like.
I highly doubt you were under any impression of what I knew and didn't know.  your statement about being close to an elder was odd given that is your father. How could you not say don't talk negatively about your father unless your not that close or are at odds with him. If someone was referencing my father whether I am close to him or not I would have been straight from the get go and said " don't talk about the elders my father happens to be one of them and he doesn't lie" !. Since you weren't you come across as dishonest and really fake. You didn't need to spell out nothing for me lady I got your number more than you realize.
What accusations? The pictures and statements are posted by your pastor and another LBC member, they speak for themselves!!!!! I don't need to make accusations there are several former members just like us who can attest to kens and the "elders:" shenanigans. Believe me this is just the tip of the iceberg.
You have a pastor openly admitting he masturbates, he struggles with pornography and viewed it on his eldest son's laptop before attempting to destroy it! I got your pastor on audio admitting to this and discussing how he ignores parents wishes that he or anyone at the church not discuss sex with their children because it's in the bible. Again I have the audio on that. There are a network of people who have been researching Ken and found that he was part of another sex abuse scandal in Spokane at Valley Fourth Memorial Church in Washington state. So far two child abuse sex scandals that his name is attached to. He split Walden Community Church and even brags about it while slandering it's members who stayed and did not give up their church building to him after a few months of him getting there, they were smart!
Lady all this stuff has been posted on line and more will come exposing this dude. We got audios , photos, and video out the wazuuuu. Also we found so much information on some of your leaders in that church that is going to become explosive once it's revealed to the members and any potential members.  There is information about the young boy who was raped by one of LBC church members and official court documents confirming it! Your pastor lied his ass of when he sent out that email to all of us and because he attempted to discipline us several times for asking questions we left. Because we are not  not putting up with all these shenanigans.
This man is on audio talking about going into a bookstore to look at dirty material and looking around to make sure nobody knew him. He openly admits on audio that he struggles with masturbation and that he knew covenant eyes wasn't on his sons laptop. Because of this he was able to view several filthy pornographic sites and nobody knew for a few days until he decided supposidly that he needed to get rid of it!. I don't care that he got rid of it he only got rid of it after two to three days maybe longer viewing it. This was his kids laptop I mean how dare he do that on his childs computer, disgusting. Now he stands up there crying a river over suffering persecution give me a break! He's being a maryter and a crybaby.
The elders are no better because they are allowing all the shenanigans  to go on. They all have their deep dark secrets and trust me it's about to be exposed. Now your going to want to email me defending ken and the church or your going to ask me the same questions over and over. I'm going to tell you don't even bother I will delet your emails before I read them. If you dont like what I said well that falls under to bad!!
Everything is coming out and these audios will be released online soon.
By the way I did enjoy my day. Don't hold onto that anger its not good for you. I have complete peace and I am so grateful to the Lord at what he has been revealing about this church and your pastor.
Check out Johnathan Carollo vs Valley fourth memorial church spokane washingotn. Ken ramey is named in the lawsuit. He was told by kids parents in the youth not to allow Dahl, a child molester and rapist near their children. That was ignored by the pastors. Happy reading
watchmanwakes

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Reply with quote  #33 
Because Robert Robert won't or can't attend to facts, he resorts to ad hominen attack only.  According to him you are a sick, bitter, prideful, lying sinner who only serves a "small god." 

According to Mr. Robert, "If you keep thinking about sex all the time - as you are - you might start to do some of the things you think about.   I am told that is how it works."  So he has only been "told" this is how it works (how sin is conceived and brought forth), but has never experienced it himself?  Sounds like a very prideful and dishonest statement to me.

"But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.  Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death." (James 1:14-15)

According to Mr. Robert, "You sound very prideful.  Like you love telling secret information - you should read Proverbs."  Mr. Robert should read Ephesians 5:11 - "And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them."  You are called to expose works of darkness (secret information). 

According to Mr. Robert, "You do not believe God is powerful enough to bring justice...You have a very small god since he needs you so badly."  His small Calvinist god controls all things not allowing man free will.  Our Great God redeemed us and gives us free will to serve Him and He will exact perfect justice at His Judgment Seat. 

"You make yourself a judge when only God is big enough to do that."  Mr. Robert should read 1 Cor 2:15 - "But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man."

Your "small god" can and will reveal all secrets at LBC.  If Mr. Robert believes you are spreading lies, then I invite him to come on this forum to refute those lies.  We have no agenda but for the truth. 


formerlbcmember

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Reply with quote  #34 
Excellent assessment and it's backed up with scripture. Something they love to do to those in opposition to their calvinism. It also appears to me that Robert Robert has some anger issues. I don't think any email shouldn't warrant that type of instant reaction from anyone. It seems to me that this type of response came because there's truth to the email and Robert Robert knows it.
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Reply with quote  #35 
I've learned that the Macarthurites will not acknowledge the truth if it goes against their interests.  As BJW has stated, they are trained to go into attack mode when confronted.   Years ago I looked into one of their favorites: Al Mohler.  I saw that he was a leader of two NGO's of the UN: The Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission of the SBC and Focus on the Family.  When I told pastors at GCC these facts, I was only called a liar and a fool.  To this day, not one GCC leader will acknowledge these facts about Mohler. 
formerlbcmember

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Reply with quote  #36 
It's because your onto them and they know it. They all operate the same way and they can be vicious. I found out today that several member from LBC are very disturbed by your post on what Mr. Bladridge posted on his facebook ( the pictures you see above). They can't believe it and to be honest I was surprised that there has been some positive feedback on your posts by members from lbc. Keep it up with exposing them as long as there are some waking up then you have done right.
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Reply with quote  #37 
The story that Ken Ramey tells about his mentor and the 17 year old girl doesn't add up to me.  We are told that a federal agent called Ken's mentor who was charged with sexually assaulting a girl in his youth ministry.  Ken's mentor had sex once with a 17 year old girl who we are told was relentlessly pursuing him and he was called by a federal agent?   Having sex with a 17 year old is illegal, but why would a federal agent be involved?   And Ken said that it was the "town" that said (charged) his mentor with sexual assault.  This means the assault was handled by the local police and local attorneys...  Why then would The Feds be calling him?   Could The Fed's involvement imply there was something more sinister going on than just sex once with a 17 year old? 

And Ken's mentor was contemplating suicide because he made this one mistake with a 17 year old going on 35 who was pursuing him?  And even after Ken's mentor took his family to another town to escape this, her "relentless pursuit" continued?   

formerlbcmember

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Reply with quote  #38 
Watchmenwakes makes some very solid points! Feds only get involved when it's kidnapping, child porn, human trafficking and not involving child sex abuse alone that is dealt with on the state level according to an attorney friend of mine. The local authorities (detectives and police investigate )they then hand it over to the D.A. who brings charges on behalf of the victim. So watchman is correct in asking why are the feds involved and why contemplate suicide? There's most likely a lot more to this story.
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Reply with quote  #39 
According to this obituary, Pastor Ken Ramey officiated at the funeral services of one of his Lakeside Bible Church members who was also a member of the Eastern Star (Masonic organization for women).


"Margaret Brown Bookamer, born Feb. 19, 1907, in Wampum, Pa. passed away July 1, 2003 at the age of 96 at Park Manor Nursing Home in Conroe, Texas. She was preceded in death by her husband, Thomas C. Bookamer. She is survived by her daughter, Bette and son-in-law, Jack Crowe, with whom she made her home for the last 20 years. Other survivors include granddaughter and grandson-in-law, Linda and Jimmy Sturdevant; grandson and granddaughter, John and Heather Crowe; great-grandchildren, Adam and Joy Sturdevant; step-great-grandchildren, Rand, Ridge and Scott Hartsfield, Special friend, Dorothy Rose. Mrs. Bookamer was a past member of the Eastern Star, Walden Ladies Association, and was a member of the Lakeside Bible Church. Family will receive friends on Friday, July 4th from 7 to 8 p.m. at Metcalf Funeral Home, Conroe, Texas. Funeral services will be held on Saturday, July 5th at 10 a.m. in the Lakeside Bible Church with Pastor Ken Ramey officiating. Burial will be in the Garden Park Cemetery. The family extends its deepest appreciation to the entire staff at Park Manor for their loving care over the past 14 months and to the Crown of Texas Hospice during the last few days of her life." (L)
formerlbcmember

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Hi watchmen ,

Here is a quote from Ken Ramey from the sermon he did in Pretoria Africa May 2015 in regards to Peg Bookamer . This is of course a quote from the sermon he did when he spoke about splitting Walden Community Church! I will post the entire transcript below this quote so you can see it in it's entirety. If you would like me to do another post just on this sermon please let me know.


The oldest lady in our church for the first few years, her name was peg bookamer and she shows up with her bible and she comes hobbling into that elementary school and I said “ peg what are you doing here”?  And she looked at me and said “ you preach the bible and she said I want you to do my funeral” ( laughing from ken and audience ).  And so she was an old Scottish Presbyterian okay, and she came in with her bible and guess what? When we opened up our building for the first time and we bought land before we had a first worship service on a Sunday morning peg died that week.  The week before we moved into our church building and so we had the very first church service on Saturday morning.  The first service ever in our building was a funeral for our senior saint, peg bookamer and so somebody asked me when was your first service?  I said our first service was a funeral and the guys said well that’s kind of depressing I said no it wasn’t because if you knew peg there’s no better way to inaugurate this building then with the home going of our senior saint.


and and make them look bad or speak evil of them.  Um I just don’t think that honors the Lord and in fact I will never forget that first Sunday. Pretoria Africa

 

Ken Ramey

Church Split/ Walden Community Church    

 

May 20th-23rd

 

 

 

 

Prayer 

 

 

Well this particular seminar is titled Defusing Disunity! Defusing Disunity and uhhh this is going to be an exposition of Philippians chapter 4 verses 1-3

 

so take your bibles  and turn to Philippians chapter 4 and I want to read this passage for you, it’s a familiar passage I’m sure. ‘ Ummm” probably the two most well known or maybe infamous women in the bible that we know very little about.  All we know uhh is that they got into some type of conflict.

 

Some kind of controversy uhhh enough that paul needed to address a number of them publically and their conflict was preserved for all time in the pages of scripture.

 

Aren’t you glad you are not Euodia or Synticie? Or that some how your conflict with your wife or husband or A fellow pastor or someone in your church is not preserved in the pages of scripture?

 

Because all of us could easily fall in the category of Euodia or Synticie.  Well let’s read this together Philippians chapter 4 verse one.

 

Disunity or disharmony is one of the most common problems that churches face!

 

It’s also one of the most deadly problems that churches face.

 

Disunity and disharmony act like cancer that eats away at a church and if left unchecked, it will eventually kill it!

 

And like a cancer in a body disunity and disharmony in a church start with a small disagreement among it’s members.

 

These disagreements turn into divisions when people begin to take sides and everyone who agrees with one another groups together against all those who disagree with them.

 

And when this happens the growth of the body is hindered and it’s testimony to the world is weakened.

In extreme cases the fighting becomes so intense between the two divisions the church splits apart each group go’s their separate ways.

 

And in the final stages the church is destroyed but what is even more tragic is that Christ’s reputation is dishonored.

 

Satan’s strategy is very simple he desires to dishonor God by destroying his church and so his intent or his philosophy or his strategy I should say is simply to divide and conquer.

 

That’s satans strategy in the local church to divide and conquer.  All satan needs to do is for some people to disagree with something that the church teaches or something that the church does.  Or for someone to get their feelings hurt or to get offended and he can get his foot in the door.

 

And then it’s only a matter of time before he busts open that door and wreaks havoc on the entire congregation through disunity.

 

   I watched this very thing happen in the 1st church that I pastured.  I moved from my present uhh… the ministry I was in California working at Grace Community Church as the H.S. pastor serving with John MacArthur and what a privilege that was for a number of years and then I got kicked out of the nest. John said “go be a  senior pastor” and so I began to go look around the United States for a ministry and I came across a church in Texas. And umm it was a very like minded church in many ways and uhh there had been a faithful expositor there for 15 years. Who was just going through books of the bible teaching the scriptures and I thought wow what an easy fit! You know, I could just naturally fit into that role and just pick where he left off.  And uhh however uhh.. part of the dynamic of that church was that the former pastor uhh.. Decided to stay in the church!

Obviously there was a lot of concern about that when I got there.  Is, how is this going to work? Ummm this doesn’t seem like a good situation.  And uhhh well as many suspected uh with in 6 months that thing uhh turned sour and uhh it was uhh an interesting dynamic. Where I would be up teaching ummm on a Wednesday night for example in our Wednesday night bible study and I would look out into the group of our body and I would notice the former Pastor would be leaning over and talking to someone next to him. And what I found out later was that he was basically correcting my theology. He was disagreeing with what I was teaching and making sure the person sitting next to him knew that I was wrong.  And uhh… it became very “DEVISIVE”.  And one of the 1st things I had to do when I got there , there was a man leading the men’s ministry who I found out was divorcing his wife! And I thought how could we let a man whose divorcing his wife be leading our men’s ministry? He’s not qualified he’s not an example! And no one seemed to not want to deal with it because he was one of the most high powered lawyer’s in our town.  They were afraid we would get sued. Uhhh in some way and I said well somebody’s got to tackle this thing. And so I pulled him aside one Wednesday night and sat him in my office and I trust that I was very gracious and kind but I just pointed out to him and said list, if your in the process of divorcing your wife your not qualified to be leading our men’s ministry.  I said I think you need to step down and I would like to meet with you and your wife and begin counseling you and hopefully help you put your marriage back together. Well with in a matter of a few day’s uhhh…. The word was going around the church that the new pastor was telling everyone that had ever been divorced that they were going to have to leave the church (laughing from crowd of pastors) I was like how did that rumor start?  And so there were these rumors that started?  And There was uhh.. uhh ….and I was preaching through the book of James which I don’t know if it was the wisest book to start off with!  Umm probably a few other uhhh books as controversial as the book of James and so I was teaching the book of James and uhh and uhhh and and it was definitely stepping on people’s toes.  Umm they were being challenged to consider whether or not THEY WERE TRULY SAVED! And church became uhh no longer a comfortable place to be on Sunday mornings because people were being challenged to really examine their lives.  In fact I had an older gentleman take me out to lunch one afternoon and he looked at me across the lunch table and said “ you told me  that I wasn’t saved this Sunday”.   I was like, I didn’t say you weren’t saved this Sunday ( ken chuckles).   I was just teaching through James and maybe if your feeling convicted like the spirit of God is talking to you and telling you your not saved maybe it’s because your not saved! I said uhh , well he didn’t appreciate that.( audience laughing) and so anyway with in 7 to 8 months umm again it was obvious that things were beginning to a conflict was brewing in the church and there was a division uhh developing in the church and it really came out through this petition that uhh this particular man that I had lunch with decided to start a petition and the petition was and that we needed to have a congregational meeting and have a revote.  A vote of affirmation whether or not I should remain as the pastor.  And so he went around the church and he got everyone to sign this petition uhh not just the people that didn’t like me and wanted to fire me uhh but uhh even the people that were encouraged and excited about what was going on they said ya will have a meeting I’ll vote for him. And so he got he kind of stirred up the congregation umm and so umm one evening we were having our leadership meeting and he came and presented this petition.  He said here’s a petition with 100 signatures that is appealing to the elders that that we would have a congregational meeting and uhh we would discuss the state of our church we would have a revote whether or not to whether or not ken should remain on as our  pastor and uh this is what he said before he left “  If you don’t let us have this congregational meeting and have this vote , we are going to do a mail ballot”  In other words we are going to do whatever we want to do! And we really don’t care what you decide; we are going to do what were going to do! And so the man left we had this petition standing sitting on the table in front of us and I simply posed a question to our leadership team and there was 15 people sitting around they were elders , deacons, and trustee’s in this board meeting and I said “ do these people have God’s interest in mind or their own interest in mind”?  And there was complete silence around the table because it was so obvious that they weren’t thinking about God’s interest they were thinking about their own interest. And I said well we really got to decide what were going to do now, as a leadership! I said we got three choices I said number one you guys can fire me, because that’s what their asking for and they gave all the reason’s why I should be fired why I wasn’t the right fit for this church.  I said how many of you guys want to fire me?  And one guy, one of the elders raised his hand and he pretty much just wanted the problem to go away uhh I was the problem I was the flashpoint.  I said ok well that doesn’t seem to be the right decision well the second thing we could do  we can have this congregational meeting we could get the whole congregation together and we could do what their asking us to do is to discuss this to have a vote.  How many want to do that? Half the people raised their hand and half the people didn’t! I said “well it doesn’t seem like we have unity here”  so there’s a third option the third option we would follow biblical principles for reconciliation.  And I said “ I think it’s very clear uhh what has gone wrong in this church.  I said number one I said I can confess to the church and seek the churches forgiveness for coming in as a new guy, young guy uh with a full head of steam lots of excitement lots of ideas made some quick changes as soon as I got there that really put some people on edge and offended them immediately umm things that I didn’t think were that big of a deal , for example the former pastor always sat up on the stage um looking out on the congregation.  And I said I prefer to sit in the front row to be part of the congregation and worship with the congregation and simply get up and preach.  Well that threw some people off the very first Sunday who does this guy think he is changing the culture of our church? And just because I wouldn’t sit up on the stage.  Umm I also decided to remove the doxology that was in the service every Sunday and I replaced it with scripture reading.  Who would get upset with adding scripture reading to the service?  That threw a wrench in the gears in some people’s minds.  They thought this  is offensive to us, who does this young whipper snapper think he coming in changing our service at the very first Sunday granted in hind sight if somebody asked me a young guy going into a situation like that I would say you know what? Leave the doxology and just add scripture reading and prayer.  Sit up on stage for a year until they have the first big concert and they have to remove everything off the stage and don’t let that chair get put back on there.  Things like that, use wisdom and so I can admit that I did not exercise sensitivity to the culture of this church, the history of this church and I can seek the congregation’s forgiveness.  I said number two I think we as elders we need to seek the congregation’s forgiveness because we let this root of bitterness grow in our church and we have not nipped it in the bud like we should have.  And we have let this division develop and it’s our fault.  And we need to ask the congregation to forgive us.  And I said thirdly we need to also call these people who are being devisive.  Who are stirring up controversy and and and umm division in our church there being divisive! Umm we need to call them to repentance! And if they don’t repent then we may have to exercise church discipline.  And I will never forget when I said that (ken chuckling as he shares this) church discipline one of the trustee’s popped their head out from down the boardroom table and said  “ well I have never seen that done before” ( chuckles from pastor’s) and I said ok this is going to be a long road here( laughing from audience ) umm and so thankfully by the grace of God that night we unanimously agreed to follow that third line which was to follow the biblical principles for biblical reconciliation.  And I was to write a letter to the body and explain some theological differences that they had brought up they had thought I was teaching some heresy and I just wanted to clarify what those issues were. Um then I was also to teach a sermon the following Sunday addressing this whole issue.  And so anyway I wrote the letter it was a Monday night I wrote the letter and I was handing it around to different elders to make sure they approved it before I sent it out to the body and by Thursday the elders were all over the map again! And so I was handling this letter out to them and they’re like you know what this is the wrong thing to do we shouldn’t do it I didn’t agree with what we decided on Monday and I’m like wait a minute on Monday you stood up and affirmed that this is what were going to do and now on Thursday your telling us your telling me that’s not what were going to do.  And I’m thinking in the back of my mind your not qualified to be and elder.  Uh because your yes is not Yes! And your no is not No! your waffling and what was happening is the people would chew on the elders ear they would talk to the elders and the elders would listen to the people  and then begin to waiver.  Instead of shepherding the people to think biblically.  And so I thought what am I going to do Lord?  And now I got the leadership team all over the map and Sunday’s coming.  And I gotta stand up in the pulpit and say something.  I thought I had the backing of all the elders in what I was going to say and do.  And so I decided well, you know what? I’m not responsible for what the other elders are thinking and doing. I can be responsible for what I know God has called me to do as a pastor.  And so believe it or not this particular text is the text I chose  uh uh Philippians chapter four verses one through three umm to preach that particular Sunday.  And so I got up and I confessed my sin to the body and asked them to forgive me I confessed on behalf of the elders um we have allowed this division to go on to long and we have not confronted it in a biblical way I asked them to forgive us and I challenged and called these people who were being divisive who were running gossiping and slandering and getting people to sign petition’s  umm you know this is sinful this is wrong it’s dishonoring to the Lord and you need to repent you need to change.  And I preached this message and in fact this is essentially what you have in front of you in the notes are is my manuscript from that sermon that I preached that Sunday.  And it’s the only sermon that I ever preached that I got a standing ovation.  And that just show’s you how electric uhh the issue had become in our church.  That people knew that something was wrong and not everyone knew the details .  When I got up and confronted it head on and let God’s word speak for itself umm the congregation erupted in applause after it was all over now that made me feel very uncomfortable I wasn’t use to getting applause after a sermon but then I also noticed not everyone was standing and clapping.  I could pick out the handful of people the majority of people were on their feet clapping and cheering and there was a handful of people just sitting there and you could see the smoke coming out of their ears (audience laughs) it was pretty clear who’s who.  And so I had people come up to me after the service and they were hugging me and they were crying and they were saying pastor thank you so much for addressing this issue in our church head on and not beating around the bush and and and were so glad this is over! (audience begins to laugh loud) and I’m thinking to myself you know what “ we just kicked the hornets nest”.  And were going to see now what happens and sure enough by the following Friday I had a member of our church who happened to be a lawyer in our town sitting across from me , my desk in my office and basically threatening me and the elders with a lawsuit.  And the lawsuit was they wanted to sue us as a leadership team for the rights to the building, because we violated the constitution that said that this was a congregational rule church!  And so we were supposed to let them have the final say not the elders.  I said well I know that’s what the constitution say’s but what does the bible  say?   And by the way “ is 1 Corinthians 6 in your bible?  About believers not taking other believers to court! I said this is so ungodly so unbiblical and so umm anyway uh he left and I umm went on vacation ( audience laughs).  I had a vacation scheduled and so I thought well were going to go on vacation so for that week and a half we were away my wife and I were praying fervently and saying  “Lord would you give us wisdom and know exactly what to do”?  I sought counsel from other men that I respect and at the end of our vacation it was clear based on 1 Timothy chapter one where paul said to timothy remain on at Ephesus.  In other words I know it’s tough there timothy but hang in there.  I don’t want you to run I want you to remain.  And I thought well when you don’t know what to do just stick it out trust the Lord take it a day at a time and he’ll make it clear.  So I fly into Houston and we land and this was day before 911 when people could meet you in the airport at the gate and so the two true elders I called them the two true elders men who I felt were truly biblically qualified uh met us as we exited the plane and uh they said “ hey ken welcome back” they said um were going to get your luggage and your going to come with us and our wives are going to take kelli and the kids home!  And I’m like well ohh no what’s happened now? ( audience erupts in laughter) so we get into the car and we start driving up to our house and they said “ hey ken uh what did you decide”? We know you have been praying about what to do and I said well as I prayed I felt God was telling me follow the example of Timothy remain on at Ephesus so I’m going to hang in there and continue to keep my head to the plow and they said “ that’s great ken we think you need to resign “.  I’m like wait a minute I thought you guys were in support of me and encouraging me?  They said no, listen ken it’s only gotten worse since you left they actually put this lawsuit in writing and they handed it in writing to all the leadership team. I mean these people   are serious they want their building back and uh they said while you were gone twenty men met and we um all unanimously agreed that we want to plant a new church and we want you to be our pastor.  And so immediately I’m like ohh great! I said (chuckling) I just happened to talk to John MacArthur uh uh a few weeks previously and the one thing he said that I remember “ don’t go up the road with a splintered group” !  Don’t go and plant another church! And I’m like oh great here these guys are wanting me to do what my mentor said not to do , what do I do?  I said well listen I got two decisions to make number one do I need to resign?  or number two do I need to stay in the area and help you guys plant this church?  So I got back it was pretty easy to make the decision about resignation I had done everything I knew biblically to do to bring together the leadership team to be unified and they appeared to be unified on a Monday but a few days later they were not unified.  I said “ these men lack integrity” there’s nothing else I can do to make us unified!  And so in order to preserve the unity of spirit and the bond of peace the best thing for me to do is step aside.  Just remove myself from the situation.  And so I decided to resign and so my wife was thrilled she was like “ Yes, were out of here”  (chuckles) because it was a very difficult year for her uh watching me go through all this and now I got to figure out if I should stay.  My wife wasn’t to keen on that idea.  Uh I said “ honey I just got to at least meet with these guys and and see what they are about.   And so I will never forget walking into this living room of one of our members and there were these twenty guys sitting around in a circle in this living room and they were all the guys I had been meeting with Friday morning for  what we call iron men.  We were reading books on biblical philosophy on ministry and uhh these were the guys.  And they were just sitting there on the edge of their seat kind of like , okay coach tell us what to do!  And I’m like uhh so what’s up guys?  And they were like listen ken we want to have the kind of church you have been teaching us about were very excited about the direction the church is going and we know basically that we can’t have the kind of church that we need to have as long as these people continue to dig in their heels and resist change  and um they are not submissive to scripture bottom line.  And and guess what?  We don’t need this building! It’s obvious what they want.  They want their pues they want their stain glass , let them have it!  Uh we can rent a facility we can start this church.  In fact ken, we have all gone around and we anonymously wrote a number on a paper and dropped it in a hat how much we can invest in this church financially this first year and uhh they said were ready to pay you this much and it was like a 12,000 dollar raise from what I was making at this other church ( ken chuckling as he says this).  Not that that had anything to do with my decision ohhh oooo I can make some more money here it just showed their commitment these guys had thought this thing through that this wasn’t just a group  fly by night  lets just throw this together um thing they thought it through these guy’s were really committed.  And so I thought and they said “ ken if you don’t become our pastor were going to try to find somebody else just like you”!  And um so I went home and I thought ohh Lord I don’t know what to do now.  Umm these guys seem purely motivated this is not the BITTER, DISGRUNTLED, SPLINTERED group that wants to go up the road and lick their wounds.  This is the body of Christ this is the church who are wanting to in sense to leave the DISGRUNTLED, BITTER PEOPLE BEHIND! And lets just go be the church.  And so I thought about it and I remembered a book I read years ago called Agape leadership.  Uhh I don’t know if any of you ever read that book it’s a tremendous book I’m forgetting the name of the you remember the name of the spurgeon said it’s a biography of the godliest man that he had ever met.  Ya, R.C. Chapman sprugeon said he is the saintliest man that he had ever met and I remembered reading something and I pulled that book off the shelf  and there was a little chapter about how he had been a pastor at a church in England and someone came to him the leadership came to him and showed him the charter of the church that said something the said something that what he said doesn’t line up with the charter so you need to change what your teaching so that it lines up with the charter. ( ken and audience chuckling) he said no I’m not going to change the word of God to match the charter and he said in order to preserve the unity of the spirit and the bond of peace in chapter 4 verse 3 he decided to quietly humbly leave the church and he went down the street and rented a small little store front and he began to preach God’s word. And he said ten years later those leaders who had basically asked him to change his ministry, came back to him and commended him and said you are a very godly man.  And were sorry we did this and you have been a great testimony of a godly man through this whole process.  Well I thought if this is the saintliest man that spurgeon ever knew and he pulled it off and he honored the Lord then maybe we can do that.  And so we ended up the next Sunday I resigned then the following Sunday we ended up at this rented school hall an elementary school down the street and these guys said you don’t worry about a thing you just get a sermon ready and will take care of the rest.  And so I showed up and they were setting up 150 chairs and I walk in and I said guys what are you doing?  And there was probably about 200 people at he original church and they looked at me and said “ ken, they’re coming”  I said “ whose coming”? (Ken and audience laughs) I know I got 20 of you guys coming but who else is coming? They said “ they’re coming” and sure enough 150 people from that church showed up.  And really what happed was the church I believe the church left the building.  And that’s not to say that there weren’t some TRUE BELIEVERS people that still love the Lord were at that old church.  Umm a number of them were elderly and it was difficult for them to travel to go outside the community further away to come to church, I understood that.  We tried real hard to never throw that old church under the bus and and make them look bad or speak evil of them.  Um I just don’t think that honors the Lord and in fact I will never forget that first Sunday.  The oldest lady in our church for the first few years, her name was peg bookamer and she shows up with her bible and she comes hobbling into that elementary school and I said “ peg what are you doing here”?  And she looked at me and said “ you preach the bible and she said I want you to do my funeral” ( laughing from ken and audience ).  And so she was an old Scottish Presbyterian okay, and she came in with her bible and guess what? When we opened up our building for the first time and we bought land before we had a first worship service on a Sunday morning peg died that week.  The week before we moved into our church building and so we had the very first church service on Saturday morning.  The first service ever in our building was a funeral for our senior saint, peg bookamer and so somebody asked me when was your first service?  I said our first service was a funeral and the guys said well that’s kind of depressing I said no it wasn’t because if you knew peg there’s no better way to inaugurate this building then with the home going of our senior saint. So all that to say God took a bad situation and made it great! And we have been blessed over these last 16 years Lakeside Bible Church and were not a perfect church in any way.  I’m not a perfect pastor by no means.  But the Lord seemed to really bless what we have done there and in fact by the grace of God a few years ago just around the time we celebrated our tenth anniversary I got a phone call.  A man from the former church and he was on the new search committed looking for the third pastor after me they were kind of a revolving door for awhile UNFORTUNITLY WHICH WASN’T SUPRISING but a revolving door trying to get somebody to fill that position.  Anyways he was on the new search committee to find their third pastor and he said “ hey ken we have been looking around at the different churches in the community and um we visited your church it seems like of all the churches we visited it seems like God is just blessing your church! People are excited theres vibrant worship umm people are involved in ministry and theres just a vibrancy about it and and he said “ what would you attribute that blessing to”?  And and mind you this was a man one of the several men who had come into my office early on at the old church and THEY ALL TOOK THEIR SHOTS AT ME TO TELL ME WHAT I WAS DOING WRONG!  AND THEY WERE BASICALLY SAYING THIS IS WHAT YOUR DOING WRONG THIS IS WHAT YOUR DOING WRONG. And I would try to graciously listen to them as my father you know who are older men and uh and now he was coming back to me and asking me “what do you attribute God’s blessing on your church”?  And uh my flesh wanted to say (ken chuckles) that I was doing what I was doing back at my old church and you guys didn’t want it”!  Uh but I didn’t say that obviously I just said thank you for your humility , your charity, and for calling me and asking me that question.  I said I’m very honored that you asked and I began to just go through a list in my mind that number one  YOU HAVE TO HAVE A TRULY REGENERATE MEMBERSHIP YO HAVE TO HAVE PEOPLE WHO ARE TRULY SAVED! YOU CAN’T HAVE A CHURCH FULL OF UNBELIEVERS OR YOUR GOING TO HAVE ALL SORTS OF PROBLEMS.  NUMBER TWO YOU HAVE TO HAVE BIBLICALLY QUALIFIED ELDERS MEN WHO ARE MEN OF CONVICTION WHO UNDERSTAND THE SCRIPTURES AND THEIR ROLE AND WE JUST WENT ON TO TALK ABOUT THOSE THINGS AND AT THE END OF THE DAY HE SAID YOU KNOW KEN THE BOTTOM LINE KEN IS THE PROOF IS IN THE RESULTS. AND WE SEE WHAT GOD HAS DONE THROUGH YOU AND THROUGH YOUR NEW CHURCH. UM AND WE APPRECIATE THAT! And so it was almost like that R.C. Chapman ten years later right? Those men came back and commended him and I felt like that was God’s way of affirming that what we had done was honorable to him. And so um anyway with all that background um because I have seen the devastating consequences of disunity and disharmony that’s why I’m so passionate about our church our present church maintaining unity and harmony.  AND IF I GET THE SLIGHTEST HINT THAT THERE’S SOMETHING QUITE NOT RIGHT WITH OUR ELDERS OR BETWEEN ELDERS AND OUR DEACONS OR BETWEEN MEMBERS AND THE CHURCH I MEAN I JUST RUSH INTO THAT SITUATION AND MAKE SURE THAT WE TRY TO RESOLVE WHATEVER CONFLICT MIGHT BE THERE AND WE GET IT OUT ON THE TABLE WE TALK ABOUT IT WE PRAY THROUGH IT AND WE MAKE SURE IT’S RESOLVED. 

 

The apostle Paul was also very passionate about maintaining unity and harmony in the churches he planted and that he shepherded he regularly addressed this subject of unity in his letters and even confronted specific situations as we have already seen in Philippians chapter four.  Listen to just a couple references here this is 1 Corinthians chapter one verses ten and twelve  now I exhort you brethren you agree and there be no divisions among you and that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment for I have been informed concerning you my brethren by Chloe’s people that there are quarrels among you now I mean this that each of you is saying I am of Paul and I am of Apollo’s and I am of cephus and I am of  Christ  has Christ been divided and so again Paul was just very direct in the way he confronted disunity.  Ephesians chapter 4 this is the verse I referenced earlier in my testimony at what happened at our original church Ephesians chapter 4 verse 2  Paul says with all humility and gentleness , patience showing tolerance for one another in love being diligent to preserve the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace.  And then Romans 16 verse 17 now I urge you brethren to keep your eye on those who cause dissensions and hindrances contrary to the teaching which you learned and turn away from them for such men are slaves not of our Lord Jesus Christ but not of their own appetites but by their smooth and flattering speech they deceive the hearts of the unsuspecting.  Here in Philippians chapter 3paul went so far as to publically call out two people by name whose falling out with one another was obviously common knowledge.  And I think this is a good reminder here that when there’s private sin in the church it should privately but if there’s public sin it should be dealt with publically. And so here was a church that really was a model church the Philippians church it was obvious that Paul had a very special relationship with this church and that he loved these people very much.  Notice two times he refers to them as beloved here in Philippians 4:1  And so he had a very good relationship with these people however as you read through this letter that he sent them you pick up some hints along the way that the Christians in Philippi where not as unified as they should have been and it seems like there was some kind of conflict and division going on in the church. And you begin to pick it up in chapter 1 Philippians chapter 1 verse 27  Only conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel so that when I come and see you or remain absent or hear of you standing firm in one spirit with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel in no way alarmed by your opponents which is a sign of destruction for them and salvation for you chapter 2 ver two. ( ken reads the verse) and now he reads verse fourteen do all things without grumbling or disputing( complaining). These suspicions are confirmed when you get to chapter four and verses one through three Paul calls out E. and S. who had been in some open conflict we don’t know what the conflict was but Paul calls them out.  Apparently these two ladies were prominent members in the Philippian church who either had a personal conflict they had gotten sideways with one another they had gotten cross with each other or maybe they were leaders of two opposing factions in the church.  Notice however that there was no doubt in pauls mind that these ladies were genuine Christians notice at the end of verse 3 (ken reads) whose names are in the book of life.  So these two ladies may have been two of pauls original converts look back in acts chapter 16 when paul went down to Philippi he went down to the river and the first group he spoke to were a bunch of women.  So E. and S. could have been a part of that first group of converts. He considered them co laborers in the cause of Christ (ken reads verses).  I think it’s interesting here and it’s a quote about conflict from someone in the church.  He says this conflict and contention can occur between any two Christians even if they have been committed to Christ and serving him for many years.  Also disunity and dissension can happen in any church body no matter how faithful that church has been in the past.  In other words theres not a person in here who is not immune to having some kind of disunity with another brother or sister in Christ. And there is no church represented here that is somehow above conflict and disunity. Um but for the grace of God there go we. In fact church splits begin with fights between those who formally work together in the body when it was growing and otherwise successful.  This gentleman asks how does this happen?  The answer is the failure to resolve interpersonal conflicts biblically.  He go’s on to say that if we want to avoid such disunity in the church it will be helpful for us to understand how the normal flow of human relationships can turn into a flood of seemingly parelles discord.  Some form of conflict is inevitable in any relationship  involving two simple people but a proper approach to that difficulty will resolve it and bring the parties closer together.  When the initial conflict is not handled properly the problem will begin snowballing and lead to an avalanche of disharmony.  I read that because I think it’s an accurate description of what happens to a lot of relationships when initial conflicts aren’t resolved biblically the problem snowballs into and in seemingly pareless discord. I have seen this many times in marriages and a couple will show up in my office and they will  43:45

So all that to say God took a bad situation and made it great! And we have been blessed over these last 16 years Lakeside Bible Church and were not a perfect church in any way.  I’m not a perfect pastor by no means.  But the Lord seemed to really bless what we have done there and in fact by the grace of God a few years ago just around the time we celebrated our tenth anniversary I got a phone call.  A man from the former church and he was on the new search committed looking for the third pastor after me they were kind of a revolving door for awhile UNFORTUNITLY WHICH WASN’T SUPRISING but a revolving door trying to get somebody to fill that position.  Anyways he was on the new search committee to find their third pastor and he said “ hey ken we have been looking around at the different churches in the community and um we visited your church it seems like of all the churches we visited it seems like God is just blessing your church! People are excited theres vibrant worship umm people are involved in ministry and theres just a vibrancy about it and and he said “ what would you attribute that blessing to”?  And and mind you this was a man one of the several men who had come into my office early on at the old church and THEY ALL TOOK THEIR SHOTS AT ME TO TELL ME WHAT I WAS DOING WRONG!  AND THEY WERE BASICALLY SAYING THIS IS WHAT YOUR DOING WRONG THIS IS WHAT YOUR DOING WRONG. And I would try to graciously listen to them as my father you know who are older men and uh and now he was coming back to me and asking me “what do you attribute God’s blessing on your church”?  And uh my flesh wanted to say (ken chuckles) that I was doing what I was doing back at my old church and you guys didn’t want it”!  Uh but I didn’t say that obviously I just said thank you for your humility , your charity, and for calling me and asking me that question.  I said I’m very honored that you asked and I began to just go through a list in my mind that number one  YOU HAVE TO HAVE A TRULY REGENERATE MEMBERSHIP YO HAVE TO HAVE PEOPLE WHO ARE TRULY SAVED! YOU CAN’T HAVE A CHURCH FULL OF UNBELIEVERS OR YOUR GOING TO HAVE ALL SORTS OF PROBLEMS.  NUMBER TWO YOU HAVE TO HAVE BIBLICALLY QUALIFIED ELDERS MEN WHO ARE MEN OF CONVICTION WHO UNDERSTAND THE SCRIPTURES AND THEIR ROLE AND WE JUST WENT ON TO TALK ABOUT THOSE THINGS AND AT THE END OF THE DAY HE SAID YOU KNOW KEN THE BOTTOM LINE KEN IS THE PROOF IS IN THE RESULTS. AND WE SEE WHAT GOD HAS DONE THROUGH YOU AND THROUGH YOUR NEW CHURCH. UM AND WE APPRECIATE THAT! And so it was almost like that R.C. Chapman ten years later right? Those men came back and commended him and I felt like that was God’s way of affirming that what we had done was honorable to him. And so um anyway with all that background um because I have seen the devastating consequences of disunity and disharmony that’s why I’m so passionate about our church our present church maintaining unity and harmony.  AND IF I GET THE SLIGHTEST HINT THAT THERE’S SOMETHING QUITE NOT RIGHT WITH OUR ELDERS OR BETWEEN ELDERS AND OUR DEACONS OR BETWEEN MEMBERS AND THE CHURCH I MEAN I JUST RUSH INTO THAT SITUATION AND MAKE SURE THAT WE TRY TO RESOLVE WHATEVER CONFLICT MIGHT BE THERE AND WE GET IT OUT ON THE TABLE WE TALK ABOUT IT WE PRAY THROUGH IT AND WE MAKE SURE IT’S RESOLVED. 

 

The apostle Paul was also very passionate about maintaining unity and harmony in the churches he planted and that he shepherded he regularly addressed this subject of unity in his letters and even confronted specific situations as we have already seen in Philippians chapter four.  Listen to just a couple references here this is 1 Corinthians chapter one verses ten and twelve  now I exhort you brethren you agree and there be no divisions among you and that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment for I have been informed concerning you my brethren by Chloe’s people that there are quarrels among you now I mean this that each of you is saying I am of Paul and I am of Apollo’s and I am of cephus and I am of  Christ  has Christ been divided and so again Paul was just very direct in the way he confronted disunity.  Ephesians chapter 4 this is the verse I referenced earlier in my testimony at what happened at our original church Ephesians chapter 4 verse 2  Paul says with all humility and gentleness , patience showing tolerance for one another in love being diligent to preserve the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace.  And then Romans 16 verse 17 now I urge you brethren to keep your eye on those who cause dissensions and hindrances contrary to the teaching which you learned and turn away from them for such men are slaves not of our Lord Jesus Christ but not of their own appetites but by their smooth and flattering speech they deceive the hearts of the unsuspecting.  Here in Philippians chapter 3paul went so far as to publically call out two people by name whose falling out with one another was obviously common knowledge.  And I think this is a good reminder here that when there’s private sin in the church it should privately but if there’s public sin it should be dealt with publically. And so here was a church that really was a model church the Philippians church it was obvious that Paul had a very special relationship with this church and that he loved these people very much.  Notice two times he refers to them as beloved here in Philippians 4:1  And so he had a very good relationship with these people however as you read through this letter that he sent them you pick up some hints along the way that the Christians in Philippi where not as unified as they should have been and it seems like there was some kind of conflict and division going on in the church. And you begin to pick it up in chapter 1 Philippians chapter 1 verse 27  Only conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel so that when I come and see you or remain absent or hear of you standing firm in one spirit with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel in no way alarmed by your opponents which is a sign of destruction for them and salvation for you chapter 2 ver two. ( ken reads the verse) and now he reads verse fourteen do all things without grumbling or disputing( complaining). These suspicions are confirmed when you get to chapter four and verses one through three Paul calls out E. and S. who had been in some open conflict we don’t know what the conflict was but Paul calls them out.  Apparently these two ladies were prominent members in the Philippian church who either had a personal conflict they had gotten sideways with one another they had gotten cross with each other or maybe they were leaders of two opposing factions in the church.  Notice however that there was no doubt in pauls mind that these ladies were genuine Christians notice at the end of verse 3 (ken reads) whose names are in the book of life.  So these two ladies may have been two of pauls original converts look back in acts chapter 16 when paul went down to Philippi he went down to the river and the first group he spoke to were a bunch of women.  So E. and S. could have been a part of that first group of converts. He considered them co laborers in the cause of Christ (ken reads verses).  I think it’s interesting here and it’s a quote about conflict from someone in the church.  He says this conflict and contention can occur between any two Christians even if they have been committed to Christ and serving him for many years.  Also disunity and dissension can happen in any church body no matter how faithful that church has been in the past.  In other words theres not a person in here who is not immune to having some kind of disunity with another brother or sister in Christ. And there is no church represented here that is somehow above conflict and disunity. Um but for the grace of God there go we. In fact church splits begin with fights between those who formally work together in the body when it was growing and otherwise successful.  This gentleman asks how does this happen?  The answer is the failure to resolve interpersonal conflicts biblically.  He go’s on to say that if we want to avoid such disunity in the church it will be helpful for us to understand how the normal flow of human relationships can turn into a flood of seemingly parelles discord.  Some form of conflict is inevitable in any relationship  involving two simple people but a proper approach to that difficulty will resolve it and bring the parties closer together.  When the initial conflict is not handled properly the problem will begin snowballing and lead to an avalanche of disharmony.  I read that because I think it’s an accurate description of what happens to a lot of relationships when initial conflicts aren’t resolved biblically the problem snowballs into and in seemingly pareless discord. I have seen this many times in marriages and a couple will show up in my office and they will  43:45

 

 

 

 

formerlbcmember

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I didn't go in and fix the grammar there was a lot said in this sermon and hopefully you can understand it clearly.
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It's wrong that any church has incorporated with the world.  Walden Church was incorporated and I guess its bylaws stated that it was to be "congregation ruled."  Ken Ramey, being a disciple of John Macarthur, would naturally want to enforce an "elder rule' at Walden Church.   It seems that this is what caused the divide and subsequent lawsuit at Walden.  Why did Ramey accept this position of pastor in a church whose charter called for congregational rule? 
formerlbcmember

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I believe he accepted the pastoralship in order to take over. I mean why start a new church when you already have one with about 200 members? That is a solid income, a church building, and he doesn't have to put in the work and work one to two jobs while building a church.   Nor is hes tarting off with nothing as most pastor's starting out had to do in the past! I have noticed from your website and others that TMS graduates don't have to build a church from the ground up. I also noticed with congregational rule churches the members are hungry for a good pastor and don't realize what they are accepting into their church when they bring in a TMS graduate. I believe they see TMS and know of John MacArthur but don't really understand his teachings until it's to late. Feel free to elaborate for jump in on my opinions anytime. 
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Originally Posted by formerlbcmember
I believe he accepted the pastoralship in order to take over. I mean why start a new church when you already have one with about 200 members? That is a solid income, a church building, and he doesn't have to put in the work and work one to two jobs while building a church.   Nor is hes tarting off with nothing as most pastor's starting out had to do in the past! I have noticed from your website and others that TMS graduates don't have to build a church from the ground up. I also noticed with congregational rule churches the members are hungry for a good pastor and don't realize what they are accepting into their church when they bring in a TMS graduate. I believe they see TMS and know of John MacArthur but don't really understand his teachings until it's to late. Feel free to elaborate for jump in on my opinions anytime. 
I would say this is an accurate assessment.  The stuff they put out for the public is very deceptive and does not fully reveal how they believe.  Another case of what you describe was brokenbutstanding's thread about the church in Italy.  It seems to be a pattern they follow.
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Originally Posted by formerlbcmember
I also noticed with congregational rule churches the members are hungry for a good pastor and don't realize what they are accepting into their church when they bring in a TMS graduate. I believe they see TMS and know of John MacArthur but don't really understand his teachings until it's too late. 


Perhaps some churches know what they are getting when they hire a TMS grad (a Leadership Network type works-based mind control operation), but many for sure have been fooled into believing Macarthur and his TMS grads are Christians and biblically sound.    
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The following excerpted from an article about Calvinism well describes what we have seen from the Macarthurites:

"Just as John Calvin 'stole' Geneva to set up his personal kingdom with himself as 'Pope,' modern Calvinists are stealing churches. Old Baptist churches in the United States are a prime target. A Calvinist will apply for an empty pastorship while keeping his belief in Calvinistic doctrine a secret. Upon being offered the position by unsuspecting church members he begins to bring in other undercover Calvinists who are promoted to ruling positions as deacons and elders. The undercover Calvinists quickly reach a majority in the ruling body of the church. The church appears to be prosperous and growing, because the undercover Calvinists recruit only other Calvinists as new members. The new members are all a part of the scheme. These wolves in sheep's clothing make a power play after gaining a majority control. They force out the older non-Calvinist church members one at a time with rudeness, intimidation and insults. Slick scheme! The Calvinists have just stolen church property that could be worth $5 to $10 million or more. Calvinists rarely build a new church on their own. They may be proud of their success in stealing the church, but in reality they have only secured a ticket to the Lake of Fire."

Romans 20:15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

formerlbcmember

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Well said and 100 % true
formerlbcmember

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I find it interesting that ken Ramey no longer does livestream on LBC website after the mother of the abused boy outed the church in their livestream chat for hiding the child sex abuse from its members. He also after 16 years no longer posts their weekly bulliten on their website. What happened to transparency?
formerlbcmember

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He moved livestream to youtube where noone can comment
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Their idea of transparency is like a one way mirror.  They want the congregation to be open, authentic, vulnerable, sharing, confessing sins one to another, but the congregation can find no transparency when it wants to look into their interests (financial, legal, etc). 

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