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Callie

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About 8 1/2 years ago I started attending a smaller, new, church plant in my Northern California community, Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley.  (They normally rent from the Seventh Day Adventists and are currently renting from the SDA's in Sunnyvale, CA.) I wanted to know other Christians, be known, not be in a mega church where it was anonymous, and grow as a Christian.

A. Naïve, Didn't Do My Research, Joined Authoritarian, Abusive Church

My wishes in a church were simple and in retrospect naïve. I did not know at that time that I should thoroughly research a church: all links on their website, what they believe, their power structure, Membership Covenants (I will never sign one again as it is a crowbar by church leaders to exert authoritarian control over members' lives and Jesus required 0 pages to be signed to follow Him!), their teachings, and accountability to a higher structure.  Instead I got a spiritually abusive, authoritarian church (like the ones described in Dr. Ron Enroth's books Churches That Abuse and Recovering From Churches That Abuse, now available for FREE online, an other books and resources about Spiritual Abuse).

B. Membership Covenants. Signed One At This Church And I Will NEVER Sign One Again. Authoritarian Control

I signed the Membership Covenant and became a member of Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley. I was told this was to get us back to Biblical basics that had been lost.  The extensive Membership Covenant was filled with Scripture verses. 

My warning to others: Don't sign a Membership Covenant. Jesus didn't have people sign any papers to follow Him.  MC's are simply used to control people and for leadership to insinuate themselves into your life.

C. Why Were Good Christians Quietly Leaving Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley?

I started to notice in my first several years of membership that something was wrong, but I couldn't pinpoint it. Good and godly Christians (families, couples, singles) simply disappeared from GBF never to be seen again. It was very odd. I would ask about them, but was shut down.  Several of the families were key families in founding GBFSV.  I knew them to be lovely people, Christians, in the Word. 

I found out later when I talked to them, when I was no longer a member of GBFSV, that they had left because of the growing Authoritarianism and rigid control the pastors/elders expected to exert over members' lives, complete with being ordered into meetings, phone calls to your home, emails, mandatory lunch/coffee meetings in which they went over your life, and ordering everything about a person's life (from décor in your home to what you feed your kids to whom you should be friends with).

D. Authoritarianism. Lording It Over The Flock.

The GBF pastors/elders claim that they will give an account for members' souls to God and we must "obey and submit to [our] elders."  Any thought, any question is challenged back by the elders with, "You are bringing an accusation against an elder without cause." They are arrogant and puffed up.  For all that they criticize the Roman Catholic Church, they are set up exactly like it: With the senior pastor as Pope and the associate pastors/elders as cardinals, complete with "the keys", excommunication and shunning of any member for any reason.

There is no congregational vote (I will never join a church again or give money where there isn't a congregational vote with the priesthood of all believers giving their input).

E. Godly Woman Subjected To Church Discipline And Harassment For Leaving GBFSV

The first person to be the subject of a closed door, after Sunday service, "church discipline meeting" was a godly, middle-aged, professional married woman.  Senior Pastor Cliff McManis said that they had "worked with her for a very long time and that they were now at Step 3 of the church discipline process."  The church members were told to pursue her because she would not "obey and submit" to her husband.  She harassed by church members, disconnected her cell phone and her email, and she  moved out of the family home.

She told me when I interviewed her that she thought that there was something terribly wrong with Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley, with their teachings, their lack of accountability to any outside church, and she refused to go to that church again and went to another solid denomination with accountability and long track record.  She told me that the GBF pastors/elders had screamed at her, including coming to her home and screaming at her. 

The GBFSV pastors/elders control the narrative before all church members, telling stories about Christians that aren't true and maligning peoples' reputations before all.

The wife refused to come back and the GBFSV pastors/elders had to let her go.

F.  Godly Doctor In His 70s (A Personal Friend Of Pastor John MacArthur's) Ordered To Be Excommunicated And Shunned 

I knew that GBFSV had really gone "off the rails" when we had another closed door meeting, on the orders of the senior pastor Cliff McManis, and a godly doctor in his 70s was ordered to be excommunicated and shunned. There was no specific charge brought against him. Only that the GBFSV pastors/elders had 'worked with him for years' and to have nothing more to do with him. To shun him. To call him to repent.

Senior Pastor Cliff McManis told us to "pray for [the doctor's] wife." Neither the doctor or his wife were at church.

I sat there and thought, "What is the charge against this dear brother in the Lord?" There was nothing. I thought the charges against him were lies.

The doctor is a faithful Christian, loving husband, loving father to grown children. He gave of his time and money to GBFSV.  He bought high-quality resources to start the GBF lending library (DVDs, books).

The doctor had invited and paid for our senior pastor Cliff McManis to join him, John MacArthur, and a few other men on a trip to North Carolina to meet the Rev. Billy Graham in person at his North Carolina log cabin home.  And for all that the doctor did, this was the thanks he got from the GBFSV pastors/elders: to have his name dragged thru the mud.

Several other church members secretly taped the excommunication/shunning. Those families also left GBF after that.

The GBFSV pastors/elders require an "exit interview" with two pastors/elders in order to leave the church. Adults are freely permitted to leave.

G. My Own Excommunication And Shunning: Threatened By Pastors/Elders For Discovering A Megan's List Sex Offender At Church

I was doing a legal research project for a former sex crimes prosecutor and I was on Megan's List, California's registry of sex offenders. I inadvertently discovered that a new GBFSV church member (Cupertino, CA) was a registered sex offender on Megan's List while doing my research.  He's a convicted child pornographer.

I reported it to the GBFSV pastors/elders. They had me in a meeting where the four of them screamed and yelled at me. They told me that he was their friend, they had visited him in prison, and that they trusted their children with him.  The GBF pastors/elders said that mothers had no say over their children and that if a father wanted the sex offender to touch his children that this word was "final" and that his wife was "to obey" and "to submit" to him and "his authority."

I hit the GBF pastors/elders back with: "Mothers are required by God and by California law to protect their children. If a mother fails to protect her child, and harm comes to her child,  she can be arrested and prosecuted and land in state prison. Child Protective Services can take away her child(ren).  She is NOT off the hook of legal responsibility by blaming her husband and that she said that the decisions were his. Mothers land in state prison all of the time for this." 

The GBF pastors/elders said the sex offender was "coming off Megan's List". They put him in a position of leadership and trust, something that experts around the world who specialize in sex crimes have criticized the GBF pastors/elders for and said that should never be done.

The sex offender's supervising law enforcement agency, Sheriff's sex offenders' task force, called the pastors/stories "all lies" and "total lies".  The Sheriff was so alarmed they contacted the California Attorney General which confirmed the story was "all lies" and "total lies". 

The GBF pastors/elders called me at home and told me to never contact law enforcement again, that I was to obey and to submit to my elders, and that I was to never reveal their names to law enforcement, the name of the church, or contact law enforcement about the sex offender. That is a felony called obstruction of  justice. Also intimidating a witness. 

The GBFSV pastors/elders read me a Scripture at the end of our meeting about child safety that I was destined for Hell and not one of us.

They gave me a threat that they intended to make good on and they did.

H. Insufferable Control Of My Life

The GBF pastors/elders have ordered members to be friends with other highly troubled church members are verbally abusive and bizarre. Those people are their own friends. 

We were all cordial with them but get them at a distance because of how bizarre they are and how incredibly verbally abusive they were to men and women alike, with no adult, healthy boundaries.

I was ordered into meetings about that.  People that want your personal business, which is none of theirs, and want you to rid of your own belongings in  your home (I had a cross from Italy that was a birthday gift from years ago, hundreds of dollars) that I was told I had to get rid of. 

These people are bizarre.  They are classless and tacky. They really shouldn't leave their homes until they grow up. Imagine being told to get rid of your own possessions in your own  home? I wish I had left then!

I. Biblical Counseling Should Be Called What It Is: Malpractice

The GBFSV pastors/elders, like John MacArthur, tout "Biblical Counseling". What this means is that they have no training, education, or insight about serious problems and how to handle them. "Counseling meetings" consist of listening to their insufferable advice about things that they have no training to render, getting it wrong, and listening to their opinions (that something isn't important, ridiculing, etc.).

They get it wrong and do much damage.

1. Not Getting An Alcoholic Care By A Physician

The GBFSV spent months in meetings with me and other members about one problem member, a woman, who caused all kinds of chaos and problems.  The GBFSV pastors/elders went over "gossip" and other issues.  They made some members go and apologize to the woman, for things the woman had done to them.  It was insane.

The GBFSV pastors/elders ARE NOT COMPETENT to render advice. The real problem - she's an alcoholic - they missed entirely.  They are not qualified nor competent to diagnosis and treat. 

The woman church member should have been under a physician's care who should have guided her care into treatment for alcoholism. 

Instead the GBFSV pastors/elders damaged her, her children, and church members by claiming a skill set "Counseling" that they are untrained and incompetent to render.


2. Not Getting A Dyslexic Medical Care

Next up the GBFSV pastors/elders demanded meetings of me about the accusations by a woman dyslexic about me. She accused me of lying about events, stating that they had never taken place.

The GBFSV pastors/elders demanded meetings of me.  The woman church member said that 'the truth about [me] would come out.' 

Dyslexia isn't just a reading problem, it's a memory problem in which people have short-term memory problems and working-memory problems. She has both problems, actually gets a government disability check, and she refuses to go get medical and be involved in support groups for her disability.

According to her, Jesus could heal her if He wanted to. OK, lady, that hasn't happened. Jesus gave you medical care and support groups for your disability, kick it in gear and get some!

J. Excommunicated And Shunned - Mine

Chairman of the Elder Board Sam Kim ordered that I be banned from church property, he told the Seventh Day Adventists that I like the doctor was forbidden from being on church property. 

Mr. Kim wanted me to apologize to him and the elders for their telling me that I was "destined for Hell" at the end of the meeting about the sex offender. I refused. 

How would you respond if someone told you that you were "destined for Hell" and "not one of us" for raising a legitimate and serious issue?

I don't owe them an apology, they owe me one.

They ordered that I have nothing to do with any church members, excommunicated me, lied about me before all, and cost me my friendships of 8+ years.  I didn't get a single Christmas card.

K.  I wish...

I wish I had been like those new attenders who saw something wrong with GBF and got up and left mid-service and fled.

I wish I had immediate family who were Christians and had warned me.

I wish I had gotten up and walked out when the lovely Christian woman who wanted to leave GBF for another church was berated before all of us and maligned.

I wish I had gotten up and walked out the day the doctor was ordered to be excommunicated and shunned.  It was wrong. I knew the GBFSV pastors/elders were lying.

I wish I had gotten up when I was threatened.

I wish I had gotten up and walked out when they told me to get rid of a cross in my home, a birthday gift that I'd had from Italy for years.

I wish I didn't love so many people there so deeply.  I wish it was easier for me to leave. But it wasn't. 

And like Bonhoeffer said in World War II, that the Nazis went after other people and then they went after me.  So true. 

It was the Salem Witch Trials II at GBF. Authoritarian. Legalistic. Controlling. Destructive. 

I didn't get one Christmas card.  My mail box used to be full of them. People were ordered to shun me and never speak to me again.

I wonder, in the years to come, what vile secrets and abuses will come out of this church and others like it?


Thankful.

I am thankful for blogs dealing with spiritual abuse - like Spiritual Sounding Board, The Wartburg Watch.

I am thankful for all of the older Christians who told me that the Patriarchy teachings that were shoved down our throats never used to be taught and are new since the 90s.  I am thankful that all of the 'big names' in it have all been outted for being sexual predators.  Sued for their sex crimes against many victims. 










Callie

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Pardon any inadvertent typos.

A few corrections.

The GBFSV pastors/elders will NOT permit grown adults to leave GBF without an exit interview by 2 pastors/elders.


Also, a godly doctor in his 70s was ordered to be excommunicated and shunned by Senior Pastor Cliff McManis for really no reason, except the doctor has critical thinking skills.  McManis told church members that we should "pray for the [doctor's] wife."  She told me later when I interviewed her, neither she nor her husband were present for the excommunication and shunning of her husband, that Cliff McManis had NOT told the truth. She said she never liked him, the other pastors/elders, she thought there was something terribly wrong with them, something terribly wrong with Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley, and she said that she warned her husband that they should not go to GBFSV. 

She was right! 

She said she hope the whole place implodes, what an evil place it is.
Callie

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Adding on to other posters here, about the "Biblical Counseling"/Nouthethtic Counseling only that John MacArthur espouses, and is taught at Master's College and Master's Seminary, I saw it do incredible damage at my former church, Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley. Pastors/elders incompetent to render advice, no training, no education, would bungle very serious problems that required the care of licensed professionals, such as physicians. 

If their argument is true - that the Bible is sufficient counsel for every problem - then why do they and John MacArthur wear prescription glasses to be able to see properly? Why not just throw a few Scripture verses at vision problems and call it cured?


These people make NO SENSE and do a ferocious amount of damage. Stay away.
Callie

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Also, I came to learn what John MacArthur and his graduates mean by the term "Biblical".  It means, "We're right. Don't think. Don't question. Do exactly what we say." 

"Biblical" is used to shut down thinking, conversations, and questioning.
Callie

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I appreciate this website's information about Calvinism, which I reject. 

Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley (renting from the Seventh Day Adventists in Sunnyvale, CA) at this time, believes in NeoCalvinism.  The new, rabid form of such a hateful and un-Biblical practice.

Pastor Cliff McManis talks about how at the return of Jesus, Cliff will be given a horse to ride and to do battle on behalf of Jesus. I would sit in a pew and think, "Really? A guy like you who goes around and bullies and lies about all of these dear Christians, berates them, shuns them, excommunicates them, you think Jesus would trust you with anything? Jesus wouldn't trust you with the manure in the horses' stable, let alone with a horse!"

These people are bizarre. Arrogant. Full of pride.
Callie

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I would also like to say about church Membership Covenants, how embarrassing it was for me as a Christian to have the pastors/elders say from the pulpit at Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley, "How do we know you're one of ours if you didn't sign?" Childish. Immature.

Or telling people that if they weren't willing to sign, they shouldn't join.  (Which is actually a good thing.) And that this church isn't for them.


Just crass. Controlling. Embarrassing.  People came to church. What more do you need than the fact they showed up? To be rude and unkind to them, it was just SO EMBARASSING FOR ME AS  CHRISTIAN.

IDChristian

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Hi Callie...Welcome to the site. Everyone has their horror stories. After I read yours, a picture formed in my mind of Christ standing outside these churches and calling, "Does anyone want what I have to offer them? When you're finished arguing and fighting among yourselves, those who want real food and something to quench your thirst can come to me."
Rev. 3:20‘Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.
Callie

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Thanks for your kind welcome, IDChristian. 

You are right about Christ's true words to sup with us.
Callie

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My former church, Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley in Northern California, headed by a John MacArthur/Master's Seminary graduate, also is in to the Heavy Shepherding Movement from the 1970s.  The language is different.  The tactics are the same: to take control of adults' lives.

The founders of the Shepherding Movement later repented and apologized for its many abuses and the fact it was un-Biblical.
couragehonor

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Just replace Grace Bible Fellowship with Lakeside bible church in Montgomery Texas and Ken Ramey , I thought you were describing my former church! Well he's about to get blasted again! !! Calli just keep dropping names, I am
Callie

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Hi couragehonor,

Thank you for your kind reply. I have been reading about Ken Ramey and the child sex abuse in case and the horrible treatment that poor little boy and his Mama have gone through. Just heartbreaking.  I saw it on The Wartburg Watch and I have gotten tweets about it. 

Are all of these places nut houses? How did we get in these places. Good, faithful, sincere Christians wanted to go to church and grow. And then...destruction. We are destroyed at the place that we're supposed to be safe, by the people we're supposed to be safe with.

I have found the older posts from teacher and others from about 3+ years ago very helpful.  The various questions that were posed to them. Their experiences with the whole mess of it. The families torn apart. Reputations ruined, including to Italy and a church take-over there and some dear saints.  Just heartbreaking.

But the arrogance and cruelty that I saw in the posts is what I saw in my former church. In my former pastors/elders. Blind guides. Arrogant. Cruel. Vicious. Any lie will do. Any lie about any one. 

I had never seen anything like it before in any church. I wish I had gotten up and walked out. 

Callie

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Also an additional note about my ex-church, Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley (renting from the Seventh Day Adventists in Sunnyvale, Ca), my ex-pastor Cliff McManis is a graduate of John MacArthur's The Master's College and The Master's Seminary.

McManis also has a "Ph.D.", which seems like it's from unknown Midwest seminary that is online. It wasn't from an accredited seminary in our state, California.

McManis claimed to us former members that he had defended the Gospel to hostile, liberal people in a Southern California state university when he was taking classes to become a California teacher.

Given all of the accusations that former members have accused him of -- outright lying, bullying, threatening, screaming at them, put downs (member after member telling the same stories, men and women, some quite wealthy and most highly educated), I vetted with the State of CA his claims of being a teacher. They said they have never credentialed anyone with his name. Several supervisors worked on that research when I couldn't find his name online at the state's website.

Over at Julie Anne Smith's Spiritual Sounding Board blog there are other stories about Phil Johnson with Grace Community Church, graduates of the Master's College and Seminary. One poster (an attorney) called his former pastor a Master's Seminary graduate the most dishonest, manipulative, abusive pastor he has ever had. 

A lawsuit was posted of a Master's seminary grad who has "pastored" several churches and resulted in much damage, church splits, and of course the lawsuit which made it to the appellate court. 

I wish we had a map of Master's Seminary graduates, the churches they are pastoring, and we could link our posts to the abusive churches we've been in.
watchmanwakes

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Callie, 

It's incredible that these things you describe are happening in a church when it sounds more like something one would experience after joining the JW's.  Here's the link to the Grace Bible Fellowship you attended. 

You said you want a map of the TMS grads and their churches.  Here's the link to TMS Alumni Churches and Training Centers around the World.  Macarthurism is also spreading rapidly through Grace Advance which is training and sending TMS grads out to pastor existing churches.  Few know that Macarthur now has nearly 20 seminaries throughout the world.  The Masters Academy International runs 18 seminaries which they call "Leadership Training Centers." 

Your testimony is quite similar to others who have attended Macarthurite/Lordship Salvation churches.  Thanks for all this information and welcome to the forum.  I'm going to reread your info and teachings and try to better understand what is going on.      

bjw

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Callie,
Thank you for having the courage to speak out. I am glad you brought up the counseling aspects of the cult, as it is one of the most often overlooked apects, and has been deadly, almost getting GCC charged with malpractice at one time. I highly recommend reading the threads on the deaths at the Master's College and the thread on Nouthetic counseling/Scientology connection to see what I mean. Their neglect of proper medical treatment is downright criminal at times. I am glad more are coming forward so fewer will be hurt in the future.
You mention having a map of the churches. As you may have guessed, the cult's churches are linked, but in various sneaky ways. TMAI and Grace Advance usually have maps, and I am willing to bet GCC has a referral system for members moving. It would be nice if it were all in one spot, I'm sure it will be once they realize they can't hide being a denomination forever.
Callie

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Hi Watchmanwakes,

Thanks for your links. Yes, that's my former church.
I need to research more about Lordship Salvation. 

Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley also teaches Patriarchy, that doctrine from Homeschooling, Bill Gothard, and Doug Phillips.  Gothard and Phillips have both been felled by sex crimes.

Patriarchy teaching is dependent on the whole Eternal Subordination of the Son heresy, a Semi-Arian heresy that Jesus is subordinate.  If their whole bizarre teaching is true - that authority is vested by order of creation - than wouldn't rocks, plants, and water have authority of man since they were created first?  

I just got exhausted from all of their teachings. Where is The Gospel? Where is the Love of Christ? Where is our love for one another? Where is our love for the unsaved? Why all of this power and control stuff? I have never seen more unloving people in my life than this group of people.  The relentless need to control and dominate others by the pastors/elders, and what they were taught by John MacArthur. 

 

Callie

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Hi bjw,

Thanks for your reply. I will read the threads about the Master's and that form of counseling they believe, like Scientology and it's my understanding it comes from Jay Adams' book. 

I think the Master's College and Master's Seminary are remiss to not teach about real problems that potential clergy will encounter: alcoholism, drug addiction, mental illness, depression, domestic violence, sexual abuse.  These are just the big things that happen in peoples' lives and families over and over again.  It is malpractice to not have training about it, to just run their mouthes and give opinions, and to not get people to proper care. 

If we did that, we'd be brought up by the state for practicing without a license. 
bjw

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Right, I think it is practicing medicine without a license. They tell people these illnesses are not real but are sin issues, which gets you into this counseling. Many of these are treatable conditions, but people are made to neglect treatment. They have also made people neglect reporting violence and abuse, which is to protect the cult's reputation.
Callie

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Quote:
Originally Posted by bjw
Right, I think it is practicing medicine without a license. They tell people these illnesses are not real but are sin issues, which gets you into this counseling. Many of these are treatable conditions, but people are made to neglect treatment. They have also made people neglect reporting violence and abuse, which is to protect the cult's reputation.


Correct.

A. Unauthorized Practice of Medicine in my state, California.

"Unauthorized Practice of Medicine" in California
Business & Professions Code 2052

The unauthorized practice of medicine is a crime in California.1

Specifically, California law—Business & Professions Code 2052—prohibits the following activities if they are undertaken without a valid professional license:

  1. Practicing, attempting to practice, or advertising oneself as practicing any system of treating illness or affliction;
  2. Diagnosing, treating, operating on, or prescribing for any physical or mental condition; and
  3. Engaging in a conspiracy to—or aiding and abetting someone else to—do any of those things.2
...

No bodily harm or illness required

One of the notable things about the legal definition of unauthorized practice of medicine in California is what it does NOT include—there is no requirement that anyone actually be harmed or injured by the unauthorized practice of medicine.7

There is also no requirement that you intend to injure or harm anyone in any way.8

In other words, unauthorized practice of medicine is a victimless crime—but one that is still punished pretty harshly!"


My ex-pastors at Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley (Sunnyvale, CA) - Cliff McManis (a Master's College/Seminary graduate), Sam Kim, Tim Wong, and Bob Douglas - have all engaged in the Unauthorized Practice of Medicine describing serious medical problems, and not referring people to licensed physicians, of everything from alcoholism to dyslexia with short-term and working memory problems.  Problematic interactions with church members, caused by these untreated conditions, are also described as "sin". 

Besides being dumb, these men are EXTREMELY DANGEROUS and grossly INCOMPETENT.

There are highly trained doctors who are trained to treat these conditions and the pastors/elders at GBF with all of their whackery - The Bible is sufficient to counsel any situation - are putting members, their families, and the community in danger by NOT REFERRING PEOPLE to licensed California professionals.

B. Orders by GBFSV Pastors/Elders Not To Report Abuse


 At my former MacArthurite church, Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley (renting from the Seventh Day Adventists in Sunnyvale, CA) they admitted one of their friends to church membership who is a Megan's List registered sex offender (child pornographer), told no one, gave him church membership, put him in a position of leadership and trust (the GBFSV pastors/elders have been criticized around the world for this by experts in sex crimes who say this is NEVER supposed to be done), gave him access to children, invited him to volunteer at the 5-day GBFSV summer children's basketball camp and did not tell all parents (both church members and those in the community who entrusted their children to GBFSV). No one was told that a Megan's List sex offender was invited to show up at any time!

Cliff McManis, senior pastor, who invited the sex offender also never told the Seventh Day Adventist School (Miramonte in Los Altos, CA) whose gym that GBFSV rented that a Megan's List sex offender was invited by the GBF pastors/elders onto SDA property.  The SDA's are self-insured. Any acts of child abuse that occur on their property they can be enjoined for and sued for. The SDA's have more money than GBF and the risk for them is greater.

According to the GBFSV pastors/elders this was their right: To tell no one. Not parents. Not post it on fliers. Not tell parents who entrusted their children to GBF at the door. Not tell  the Seventh Day Adventists who own the property.  Just arrogant.  What parent in their right mind would entrust their child(ren) to a church where it was known that a Megan's List sex offender could show up at any time?

The arrogance of these men is astounding.  They have crowned themselves kings. 

The GBFSV pastors/elders told me that I was to never report their friend the Megan's List sex offender (Cupertino, CA) to his supervising law enforcement agency or any agency and that I was to never have contact with the California Attorney General's Office. The GBFSV pastors/elders via Sam Kim, Chairman of the Elder Board, told me that I was "to obey" and "to submit" to their commands.  They also told me that I was to never report their names or the name of the church to law enforcement.  These are felony crimes their obey and submit stuff, silencing: Obstruction of justice and intimidating a witness. 

The GBFSV pastors/elders said that mothers said that mothers had no say about the sex offender touching their children and if the father said it was ok that his word was "final" and she had no say. That is also a felony crime in California and she's required by law to protect her children.  If she fails, she can be arrested and prosecuted, her children can be taken away by Child Protective Services, and she can end up in state prison.

C. MacArthur, His Schools And Followers Are Nuts

These people are very bizarre and dangerous.  The Sheriff's sex offenders' task force demanded to know from me, "What kind of church do you go to that threatens you?" Me: "I ask myself that question all of the time."


Callie

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Also at Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley (presently renting from the Seventh Day Adventists in Sunnyvale, CA) they have prayer cards on Sundays where you can fill out praises and prayer requests on the back. Those are then written up and sent to all of the pastors/elders/deacons to pray for that member.

That information is later used against you. 

I would advise anyone to NEVER fill out any prayer requests on the back of those cards and DO NOT TELL THEM ANYTHING about your life. 

Trust is earned. They aren't to be trusted. They berate, scream, and lie about dear Christian men and women. They can't be trusted with anything. Do not trust them with your prayer needs.
watchmanwakes

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Reply with quote  #20 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Callie
Also at Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley (presently renting from the Seventh Day Adventists in Sunnyvale, CA) they have prayer cards on Sundays where you can fill out praises and prayer requests on the back. Those are then written up and sent to all of the pastors/elders/deacons to pray for that member.

That information is later used against you. 

I would advise anyone to NEVER fill out any prayer requests on the back of those cards and DO NOT TELL THEM ANYTHING about your life. 


This is more evidence of cultic behavior.  In these false churches the prayer requests are used to gather information against you.  There are also databased.  And as you said, they can later be used against you in some way.   These requests will expose your weaknesses and vulnerabilities and can later be used to blackmail.  Also, since these false churches are 501c3 entities, it's possible that these prayer requests can be shared with the federal government.  Taken from a "A Facilitator led Church is the Gate to Hell.--Cult of Confession" which involves small church groups:

"Sins, as defined by the group, are to be confessed either to a personal monitor or publicly to the group. There is no confidentiality; members' "sins," "attitudes," and "faults" are discussed and exploited by the leaders. Even if not obviously promoted by the group, information is collected (usually automatically without set guidelines for collection) and fed to leadership. Shameful past events may then be exploited to manipulate individual compliance or as evidence for disciplinary actions. This information is also exploited by members who leave the group."
 


 




Callie

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Reply with quote  #21 
Watchmanwakes,

I saw the prayer cards used against people at Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley by the pastors/elders.

A 501(c)(3) is simply a qualifying organization for non-profit purposes. No, info on prayer cards is not given to the federal government.

I would caution people to keep their business to themselves. Don't tell others. Don't write it down.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Callie
A 501(c)(3) is simply a qualifying organization for non-profit purposes. No, info on prayer cards is not given to the federal government.


The info may not be shared, but it could be.  I used to listen to Christians on a radio show who taught that what is said even in a small church group can be shared with the federal gov't per the 501c3 agreement. I have also seen a list of about 50 restrictions potentially placed on churches and pastors that have become 501c3's.  

BTW, this is another important and overlooked topic.  When a church incorporates with the state and becomes a 501c3 with the federal government, not only is the church disobeying God's word, but the church, in becoming a "state-church", has become even subordinate to the government.  Hush Money is a good website that explains more about this matter.
Callie

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@watchmanwakes,

I am most concerned about the spiritual abuse that is being done in these MacArthurite churches, like Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley (renting from the Seventh Day Adventists in Sunnyvale, CA) and the spiritual abuse, control, authoritarianism, threats of members, demands for blind obedience from members, excommunications and shunnings for the slightest dissent.  The government isn't even involved. Just the pride and arrogance of the pastors/elders, their lording it over the flock, and the quest for power.  They have caused enough damage on their own that only they are responsible for, not the government.

Thanks.
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Reply with quote  #24 
In my experience I have seen info shared in counseling sessions, particularly sins confessed, used against a person when they feel it is convenient. It is not good to disclose any personal information to them as they may use it when they retaliate. It has been proven in other threads that they have connections in politics and law enforcement.
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@bjw,

I concur that it is unwise to share any personal information and they will use it to retaliate.  They may have some ties to law enforcement, but those ties in my area are weakened as it is a generally liberal community who would not put up with their nonsense. (Two church members at Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley are police officers. One works for the Mountain View Police Department and the other for the Sunnyvale Police Department. GBFSV rents from the Seventh Day Adventists in Sunnyvale, CA.) 

At least I am out.  My sister recently said to me that she was relieved they excommunicated and shunned me, that she was glad that I finally stood up to the pastors/elders and got sick of all of the abuses against dear Christians and the insanity of that environment, and that she feared what I would become like if I continued to remain around them and she already (along with family friends) was afraid of what I was becoming. She said that the questions I'm asking now, the observations I'm making now, I would have never done before and I would have defended them. She said no one else could break that stronghold they had on me.

In reading some of the other stories, several relatives on this blog posted about being shunned from their children, etc. who are members of Grace Community Church, being judged all of the time.  Yes to all of this.  They judge every thing including at these MacArthurite spin-offs like Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley.

I just started to get really angry at the lovely Christians I saw who were abused before all.  I knew it wasn't true. Lovely people maligned and mistreated before all. And I thought, "No. Just no."

Other families and church members quietly disappeared, including staff members, never to be seen or heard from again. It was all very odd. 

And ironically the first person to be excommunicated and shunned from Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley was a long-time close personal friend of Pastor John MacArthur's, a doctor in his 70s.  So MacArthur's teachings came back to bite him as one of his protégées did this despicable thing to one of MacArthur's friends, and even MacArthur was furious according to the doctor and his wife when I interviewed them. They had dinner in SoCal with MacArthur and his wife.
watchmanwakes

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Callie,  The Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley allowed a Megan's List registered sex offender and child pornographer to become a church member and put him in a leadership position and gave him access to children!?!  You said: 

"The GBFSV pastors/elders told me that I was to never report their friend the Megan's List sex offender (Cupertino, CA) to his supervising law enforcement agency or any agency and that I was to never have contact with the California Attorney General's Office. The GBFSV pastors/elders via Sam Kim, Chairman of the Elder Board, told me that I was "to obey" and "to submit" to their commands.  They also told me that I was to never report their names or the name of the church to law enforcement..."  and

"The sex offender's supervising law enforcement agency, Sheriff's sex offenders' task force, called the pastors/stories "all lies" and "total lies".  The Sheriff was so alarmed they contacted the California Attorney General which confirmed the story was "all lies" and "total lies"." 

What became of all this?  Was this Megan's List child pornographer in violation?  Was he arrested?   
Callie

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@watchmanwakes,

The sex offender (Cupertino, CA) contrary to the false claims of the Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley (Sunnyvale, CA) pastors/elders Cliff McManis, Sam Kim, Bob Douglas and Tim Wong has NOT  come off Megan's List of sex offenders in California and the California Attorney General's Office refuses to take him off. 

Because of the threats the GBFSV pastors/elders leveled at me about the whole matter (they are legally mandated child abuse reporters in CA and it is a crime for them not to report), a whole host of legal agencies are now involved.  (I was excommunicated from GBFSV for this drama, and some kind of trumped up charge (they will tell any lie to destroy a person's reputation) I don't know what the sex offender is doing at GBF and I have no contact with members, who have been ordered to shun me.

The Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley pastors/elders PERMITTED their friend a Megan's List sex offender to become a church member and they put him in a position of leadership and trust. Godly women with Ph.D.'s aren't permitted to serve at GBFSV but a Megan's List sex offender/felon was fast-tracked to a trusted position.  It is simply unconscionable. Insurance companies like Church Mutual, the largest insurer of churches, say that sex offenders should always be ministered to apart from the regular congregation for safety. 

Senior Pastor Cliff McManis, a Master's College/Seminary graduate, screamed and yelled at me in an elders' meeting with him, Sam Kim (Chairman of the Elder Board), Tim Wong (elder) and Bob Douglas (associate pastor/elder).  McManis said that the Megan's List sex offender was "coming off Megan's List" and that "he said so".  OK, somebody is a convicted felon, convicted of sex crimes, sentenced to prison, serves prison time, is paroled and has a supervising law enforcement agency and you take 'his word' and don't do due diligence and check with his SUPERVISING LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY? You have got to be kidding?

McManis demanded to know why I was calling him "a sex offender". Me: "It's NOT my term it's a legal term. Someone convicted of sex crimes in criminal court is called a 'sex offender' under federal and state laws.  It's in the Penal Code of laws. It's not my term."  The whole meeting was bizarre. 4 pastors/elders against me. 

Elder/Associate Pastor Bob Douglas said that his family had known the sex offender for 40 years and he's fine. He said he would entrust his children to him, no problem. McManis said the same. Douglas wanted to know if I'd prayed for the sex offender.  We are discussing the safety of children at our church, not prayer time. 

Anyway they turned everything around on me.

The Megan's List sex offender was permitted to come to all church events, including the Bible Study I attended where parents brought their children. No one knew he was a Megan's List sex offender, save me who discovered him online doing an entirely different project.   

The sex offender whipped my entire Bible Study into a frenzy one evening about all of the "bad people in prisons".  Everybody was angry and upset and he was a masterful manipulator.  They were agreeing with him and how "terrible" those bad people were.  He conveniently omitted he was one, was a felon, served prison time, and was on Megan's List.  I just stared him down.  He was smiling that some 17 people had bought his pack of lies and his manipulation.  When I got home I documented the whole thing for the California Attorney General's Office under his picture on Megan's List.  That was also sent from the AG's office to the Sheriff's sex offenders' task force.  I told them DON'T EVER TAKE HIM OFF MEGAN'S LIST.

The pastors/elders were incensed and told me that I was to confront him, per Matthew 18:15-17.  I told them:
"No, it was your job to protect all of us from him and anyone like him. You FAILED to do your job. Don't blame me for your FAILURES.  You intentionally didn't do due diligence.  I'm not confronting a felon/sex offender who is more than 6'0 tall when I'm a woman. No way.  You failed, not me." 

Given the level of hostility that the GBF pastors/elders leveled at me outsiders have wondered if there is also a sex offender among any of them.  The response is very odd. To protect a sex offender, not protect kids, not care.  It's just all very odd.  It's not normal. 

Will we hear of sexual abuse cases in the future from this church? I believe that the answer will be yes.  Sex abuse of children is the No. 1 reason that churches are sued every year. Atty Richard Hammar, Church Law & Tax's, chart: http://www.churchlawandtax.com/web/2015/june/top-5-reasons-churches-end-up-in-court.html
Callie

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Reply with quote  #28 
By the way, I gave the California Attorney General's Office, the Sheriff's, and the other law enforcement agencies the names of ALL of the Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley (Sunnyvale, CA, rents from the Seventh Day Adventists) pastors/elders' CONTACT INFORMATION. Home addresses, cell phones, emails.

Gracious only knows what they are doing to other children since this is all ok.  It's just...not right. 

I think they saw me as a major threat and got rid of me any way they could.
Callie

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@watchmanwakes,

Oh one more thing. Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley' (Sunnyvale, CA, rents from the Seventh Day Adventists) senior pastor Cliff McManis told me during the elders' meeting they had with me that "child porn wasn't a big deal", about their friend who they gave church membership to. 

I then went on a candid discussion about pornography. "OK, let's discuss the differences between adult pornography and child pornography."  I then discussed ALL OF THE CRIMES that were committed against children to make child porn: rape, sodomy, etc.  Kidnapping in some cases (even if moved from a room to another room). Held against their will. Some times being drugged. Just horrible things done to them.  

McManis blushed bright red as I went on about pornography and discussed adult pornography.  I said, "This man had a choice between adult pornography, which is legal, and child pornography which is illegal and a felony, violating state and federal laws.  That he would choose child porn and trade in it, etc. tells me that he has a sexual interest in children, not adult women. And that is deeply troubling."  The GBFSV pastors/elders didn't see it that way.
Callie

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Reply with quote  #30 
According to the Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley pastors/elders (renting from the Seventh Day Adventists in Sunnyvale, CA) that as long as a sex offender says a few words about Jesus they are cured and can have full church membership and access to trust and kid!
watchmanwakes

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Reply with quote  #31 
Callie,

You said that Elder/Associate Pastor Bob Douglas said that his family had known the sex offender for 40 years and that "he's fine."  And that both he and Senior Pastor Cliff McManus said they "would entrust their children to him, no problem."   

Why would these supposed Christian leaders know and trust a child pornographer? 

Then you said that Cliff McManis, who graduated from John Macarthur's Master's College as well as The Masters Seminary, told you during the elders' meeting they had with you that "child porn wasn't a big deal!!!"

Pastor Cliff's bio: Rev. Cliff McManis has been in pastoral ministry since 1989, where he first began ministering to children at Grace Community Church in Sun Valley, CA. He graduated from The Master's College with a B.A. in Biblical Studies and earned an M.Div. from The Master's Seminary.
Callie

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Reply with quote  #32 

@watchmanwakes,

You got it correctly.  That's what Cliff McManus and Bob Douglas told me during the elders' meeting at Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley. Entrust their kids to the child pornographer, no problem, child porn isn't a big deal, he's come to Jesus.  Child pornographer 'said he was coming off Megan's List'...wow he has a supervising law enforcement agency for a reason and they said that Cliff's story to me was "all lies" and "total lies".

Cliff previously claimed that he had been a Youth Pastor at Grace Community Church in Southern California.  After Cliff excommunicated one of Pastor John MacArthur's good friends, a doctor in his 70s (happily married for nearly 50 years, loving father to grown children), the doctor and his wife had dinner with JMac and his wife in SoCal.

The doctor and his wife, whom I interviewed, told me that JMac said that Cliff had never had the job at Grace Community Church he claimed he had and that he had only been in a volunteer position, not a pastoral position.  A teaching credential he claimed he had the State of California said is NOT true and Teacher Credentialing supervisors said they NEVER credentialed anyone with his name in our state. 

Cliff's bio used to say that he had a Ph.D. from some Bible College in the mid-west. It seemed like an online thing, not a bona fide Ph.D. program.  After I wrote Cornerstone Seminary in Vallejo, CA about all of the accusations against Cliff recently, said that we were starting a blog, and that he's on your board and what do you know and why haven't you confronted him about his abusiveness...silence.  When I last checked the GBFSV website his Ph.D. was still listed.  If it wasn't when you checked, then perhaps I made my point.
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Reply with quote  #33 
@watchmanwakes,

One more thing. When I was on this website and reading articles I saw the Regen event for students, I guess from Master's College.  One picture of a man (large, gray hair, wearing shorts, blue outfit) and he's having a tug-of-war near with a young man near the pig's head on the barrel.  That photo actually looks like the associate pastor/elder Bob at my ex-church Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley. Any way that it could be blown up a little more so I could double-check? Thanks.
watchmanwakes

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Reply with quote  #34 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Callie
Given the level of hostility that the GBF pastors/elders leveled at me outsiders have wondered if there is also a sex offender among any of them.  The response is very odd. To protect a sex offender, not protect kids, not care.  It's just all very odd.  It's not normal. 


I too have to wonder if there is a sex offender among them or maybe even a ring of them.  I think you read Shauna's story where she said that her Lakeside Bible Church leaders (Ken Ramey) protected or defended her son's rapist as well. 
watchmanwakes

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Reply with quote  #35 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Callie
One more thing. When I was on this website and reading articles I saw the Regen event for students, I guess from Master's College. 


Do you know if Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley ever took part in Macarthur's Camp Regen?
Callie

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@watchmanwakes,

Yes, I have read Shauna's very sad and disturbing story about what that vile pastor and church did to her after her son was a victim of felony crimes by another church member, who pled guilty.  The poor dear.  Just wretched.

Obviously, I hit a nerve at Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley in Sunnyvale, CA (rents from the Seventh Day Adventists).  Obviously the pastors/elders were very threatened by me.  And they threatened me at the end of the meeting that I wasn't really one of them and that I was destined for Hell. For discussing child safety!

There's a very high rate of incest and sex abuse with all of these bizarre Patriarchy teachings. All of the big names - Bill Gothard, Doug Phillips - they've all been felled by sex crimes.  All of these 'obey and submit' guys always turn out to be sex predators.  No surprise there.  People without boundaries, and who insist other people not have boundaries or good judgment, always have a BAD MOTIVE for it.
Callie

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Reply with quote  #37 
Quote:
Originally Posted by watchmanwakes


Do you know if Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley ever took part in Macarthur's Camp Regen?


I know that GBFSV drove down to SoCal for various events and borrowed peoples' minivans to take groups of young people down there. I can't remember all of the events that they went to and took young people to. 

I know the men went to Shepherd's Conference.

Elder/assoc pastor Bob Douglas sent his daughter to Master's College. Elder Tim Wong's daugthers are also there.  One of Cliff McManus' daughters was at Master's. The other one went to college in TX.
watchmanwakes

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Reply with quote  #38 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Callie
When I last checked the GBFSV website his Ph.D. was still listed.  If it wasn't when you checked, then perhaps I made my point.


"Rev. Cliff McManis has been in pastoral ministry since 1989, where he first began ministering to children at Grace Community Church in Sun Valley, CA. He graduated from The Master's College with a B.A. in Biblical Studies and earned an M.Div. from The Master's Seminary. He went on to earn his Th.M. and his Ph.D. in Ecclesiology from the Bible Seminary in Independence, Missouri." (Rev Cliff)
Callie

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Reply with quote  #39 
Quote:
Originally Posted by watchmanwakes


"Rev. Cliff McManis has been in pastoral ministry since 1989, where he first began ministering to children at Grace Community Church in Sun Valley, CA. He graduated from The Master's College with a B.A. in Biblical Studies and earned an M.Div. from The Master's Seminary. He went on to earn his Th.M. and his Ph.D. in Ecclesiology from the Bible Seminary in Independence, Missouri." (Rev Cliff)


Thanks for your diligent research. When I checked that place in Ind, MO. it seemed like an online outfit. I didn't get the sense it offered a bona fide Ph.D. program like my relatives have obtained from a university education. Ditto for his Th.M.
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Reply with quote  #40 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Callie
 People that want your personal business, which is none of theirs, and want you to rid of your own belongings in your home (I had a cross from Italy that was a birthday gift from years ago, hundreds of dollars) that I was told I had to get rid of. 

These people are bizarre.  They are classless and tacky. They really shouldn't leave their homes until they grow up. Imagine being told to get rid of your own possessions in your own  home? I wish I had left then!


I think the time may be coming when these Calvinist/dominionists will follow their leader's example by imprisoning and even executing those who don't obey their rules.  In the future, you may be sentenced to death for possessing that cross.  Crime: Idolatry.   
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Reply with quote  #41 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Callie
Sex abuse of children is the No. 1 reason that churches are sued every year. Atty Richard Hammar, Church Law & Tax's, chart: http://www.churchlawandtax.com/web/2015/june/top-5-reasons-churches-end-up-in-court.html


BTW, it's my understanding that churches only can be sued because they have incorporated with the state.  While a corporation can sue and be sued, a church can't be sued because it's an entity not recognized in law per the First Amendment to the US Constitution: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.  
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Reply with quote  #42 
Quote:
Originally Posted by watchmanwakes


I think the time may be coming when these Calvinist/dominionists will follow their leader's example by imprisoning and even executing those who don't obey their rules.  In the future, you may be sentenced to death for possessing that cross.  Crime: Idolatry.   


Yes. They are holier-than-thou. I have never met a more cheerless, domineering, group than this one. Constantly judging others and finding fault. It is endless.
Callie

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Reply with quote  #43 
Quote:
Originally Posted by watchmanwakes


BTW, it's my understanding that churches only can be sued because they have incorporated with the state.  While a corporation can sue and be sued, a church can't be sued because it's an entity not recognized in law per the First Amendment to the US Constitution: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.  


I have worked in law offices. The First Amendment applies to speech.  It doesn't, however, prohibit a church from being sued for acts of negligence, intentional infliction of emotional distress, negligent infliction of emotional distress and other torts (that comes from the French word for "wrongs").

Any entity can be sued. As we've seen happen over and over again.
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Reply with quote  #44 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Callie
I have worked in law offices. The First Amendment applies to speech.  It doesn't, however, prohibit a church from being sued for acts of negligence, intentional infliction of emotional distress, negligent infliction of emotional distress and other torts (that comes from the French word for "wrongs").

Any entity can be sued. As we've seen happen over and over again.


According to Hush Money:

"Incorporation does little if anything in the way of actually protecting the church. The legal reality is that a church cannot be sued and brought into court until it incorporates. A church “is not an entity recognized in law.” If the court cannot legally recognize it, it cannot be sued. A church is not subject to the jurisdiction of any court. However, should a church incorporate it most certainly may be sued. Incorporation becomes the nexus of government jurisdiction to the incorporated church."

According to The Truth About Church Incorporation:

"Unincorporated churches are immune, they cannot sue, nor be sued by, anyone."

According to God Betrayed by Jerald Finney:

"Furthermore, when a church is not a legal entity, that church cannot be sued.  One can sue a legal entity such as a corporation, but how does one sue a church which is a "spiritual house made up of spiritual beings offering up spiritual sacrifices, and not a physical house made by man?"

In other words, Grace Bible Church of Silicon Valley is NOT a church; it is a state corporation and it's important Christians understand that distinction.   
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Reply with quote  #45 
Thanks for your post.

In my state they can be sued and they can also be sued as individuals for acts of liability they created. It happens all of the time in my state.
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Reply with quote  #46 

Callie
Thank you for sharing your experiences and what you observed while you were in the cult. We are happy along with your family that you got out. You mentioned that you seemed somehow deluded when you were under their authority. This is the deception Christ and the apostles warned about....spiritual power and authority is to be tested against the word of God.

Does this passage ring true of those elders who hauled you up on the carpet when you stood up for what is right? "Evil men and seducers...men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith."

1 Timothy 3:1This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. , 3Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 8Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. 9But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.

All Scripture is God-Breathed
12Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. 13But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

As Christ pointed out, about the Pharisees so many times, these men reflect their Father the devil, they are abusive, greedy, controlling, subversive, perverted and manipulating the sheep for their own agendas. Those who do not know their Bible, but trust these leaders who actually are enemies of Christ have made themselves dependent on a form of Christianity without any reality of the cross. No wonder they wanted you to get rid of your cross. Next it will be your Bible....throw it out...who needs it when you can follow a white washed viper with a fake smile, superficial charm and vain tradition? Jesus already knew what was in men's hearts....we are still learning this awful truth...

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Reply with quote  #47 
Something else I would share as a caution...as one who escaped out of the spider's web only to be snapped up by the mouth of a waiting frog, there' son such thing as too much information. As you've said, Callie...don't be afraid to investigate with eyes wide open. Speaking from my own experience, sympathizers with those who leave cults often are more entangling and deceptive than what we left. We're desperately looking for sympathy and acknowledgement and practically anything looks good after what we've experienced in the cult.

We must keep in mind the idea that most of Christendom is now under the influence of Freemasonry, Fabian elitism and Marxism. The Global money lenders of the world have their tentacles reaching into every area of life and are the controllers and financiers of many controlled opposition fronts. Just because we hear some fine sounding evangelical presenters and so called Bible expositors, we have come to the awareness through research that many of these "normal" sounding people have their own dark secrets, well hidden from the unsuspecting. I'm never surprised anymore...Be not deceived....
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Reply with quote  #48 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Callie
In my state they can be sued and they can also be sued as individuals for acts of liability they created. It happens all of the time in my state.


If you can show that in your state an unincorporated church has been sued, then you have evidence that refutes these sources that I have cited that claim otherwise. 
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Reply with quote  #49 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Callie
I was doing a legal research project for a former sex crimes prosecutor and I was on Megan's List, California's registry of sex offenders. I inadvertently discovered that a new GBFSV church member (Cupertino, CA) was a registered sex offender on Megan's List while doing my research.  He's a convicted child pornographer.


It's a serious matter that a convicted child pornographer on Megan's List is in church ministry with access to children.  Can you identify this child pornographer and can you provide evidence of his conviction (court docs...the Megan's List) and evidence he was/is in ministry at GBFSV? 
Callie

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Reply with quote  #50 
I just posted this legal question for a group of attorneys to answer. The first who responded said the church and the pastors/elders (who can be personally liable for their actions for brining in a Megan's List sex offender to church) can be sued for torts such as negligent entrustment.

I will summarize the other attorneys' responses as I get them.
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